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Justin Marshall implores All Blacks coaches to move Ardie Savea
By Ned Lester
Ardie Savea’s performance in Moana Pasifika’s win over the Blues is being hailed as one of, if not the best, in Super Rugby history. For former All Black Justin Marshall, that comes with validation for a point he’s stressed over recent years.
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Savea won the 2023 World Rugby Player of the Year award whilst playing at No. 8, and while Scott Robertson inherited the All Blacks and understandably took a ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’ approach to Savea’s selection, Marshall was on record pushing for a positional shift.
Savea is best utilised on the openside flank in the former halfback’s opinion, and that is the position the 31-year-old has played at club level over the past two seasons, while maintaining his No. 8 selection at the international level.
Moana Pasifika’s star recruit donned the black seven jersey once in 2024, but his time in the position lasted just a few minutes as injury forced a reshuffle and saw him return to No. 8 under the bright lights of Stade de France.
But with influential performances this Super Rugby Pacific season coming on the side of the scrum as opposed to the back, while explosive rookie Semisi Tupou Ta’eiloa chews through a competition-leading workload wth the ball in hand at No. 8, Savea’s prospects in the jersey vacated by Sam Cane appear strong.
“I don’t want to be a smart-arse, but I can’t help myself. I’ve been saying for three years now that Ardie Savea is an openside flanker,” Marshall told SportNation radio.
“Nobody seemed to want to listen. Particularly All Blacks coaches. The more I see him on the side of the scrum, and the way that the rest of the loose forward trio balances out, and the player that he is in that jersey, the more it is glaringly obvious to me that Scott Robertson needs to pick him in that shirt.
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“He’s a unique player is Ardie Savea. But what he does do really well is he does have the ability to slightly change the picture in the way he’s playing. But his natural instinct is to gravitate to the ball, because that’s where he’s strong.
“Either offensively or defensively, that is where he’s at his most destructive. Openside flankers gravitate to the ball, they want to be first, second arriving player the majority of the time. If Ardie’s going to that zone, he’s picking and going and carrying with his leg drive and pump, that’s where he’s devastating. He’s hard to get to ground.
“If he’s there as a defender, how good is he over the ball? And how hard is he to move? We saw that last night. For the majority of the game, that’s where he’s at, which suits the jersey number.
“Then he has the ability, when he sees others, going to that zone, getting over the ball, or cleaning the ruck, and he’s outside of that pattern, then he’s got that ability to play second, third receiver and do things that he’s been doing for Moana Pasifika, like chiping through the line and gathering that.
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“His ability to be able to do that and balance his game out is perfectly suited to that shirt.”
With newfound All Blacks star Wallace Sititi locked in and likely to be joining Savea in the starting All Blacks unit as another form loose forward, there is a clear candidate to step into the No. 8 jersey.
But while Marshall’s view of the position is clear-cut, Wallabies coach Joe Schmidt had a more fluid view of the position when asked on The Breakdown whether there’s a big difference between seven and eight in the modern game.
“Not really. It doesn’t matter who you’re looking at; when you’re making your back three and putting them together, you’re just trying to get some balance, and because Ardie is so dynamic off the back of the scrum, that’s great. He’s also so destructive as a defender when he’s coming off at seven,” the former All Blacks attack coach responded.
“And people probably underestimate how good he is in the lineout. He’s actually so quick, so explosive, he’s a very good lineout option. There’s not a heck of a lot he can’t do.”
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He had another good game on the weekend. In the previous games he’d actually made a fair few mistakes on attack too which I was surprised about. Bad ones, uncharacteristic I thought. I’ve been doing a bit of stat looking too though and it’s good to see that the high error rate might be at least tied to a high involvement, having a lot of passes already racked up in his 4 starts, and statistically still near the top for accuracy.
We know that Jordie is a perennial perplexity too, he’s always been criticized for being disconnected with the team, taking silly options, but I’m more than happy for him to be tried with a Proctor pairing instead to see if that improves both positions. My thought would be that Jordie will be the one left out first though, and say Rieko is given an opportunity with a Tavatavanawai or Tupaea (given the injuries to other options) to see if things click better. Rieko has certainly looked better outside the only real 12 he’s played with in years, that young Xavi Taele.
But as you’ve highlighted multiple times with that example against France, none of those players are on the same page. That’s the real issue. I’d be down to try fixing it by eliminating the players one at a time though, just seems like an inefficient way to do it, but maybe the issue goes that deep? First is 13, then it’s 12, though the replacement there isn’t as obvious, and then I’d have 10, and be trying Love if Dmac doesn’t absolutely light it up with a competent midfield, and last to run the playmaking microscope over would be Jordan, with him going back to the wing if he wasn’t getting the setup game right with his passing and kicking.
Pretty funny to think I’m criticizing this AB team for hungus fullback, a claustrophobic center and clumsy oaf of a 12, with a autistic 10 trying to lead them..
Razor will need to decide if unlocking the backline on attack, which I think cost us two games last year where we were unable to run in huge overlaps, is more important than cover defence. Proctor is so much more of a threat with the ball in hand, with the best all round attacking game in the SRP at the moment. It’s no coincidence the Hurricanes started scoring tries out wide and winning games when he came back. He has made a couple of bad decisions of defence which have led directly to tries though. Albeit a fairly incredible one from the Highlanders. For all his speed and strength Reiko is easily contained with ball in hand, and he is just not on the same page as Barrett, McKenzie, JB, or Jordan. When they zig, he zags.
Proctor has had a couple of poor games back to back too. Too many errors for an international centre.
No, Marshall. No.
Is this another one of your “Razor wants everyone to be able to play 4 or 5 positions” rubbish? It doesn’t mater at all what number jersey Ardie is going to have on his back, whether it 6, 7, or 8. What matters is how Ardie is used.
First though, the Elephant in the room. Ardie can’t be used like he is playing now, there’s absolutely no way he’d even last this season out, let alone another 3 years till the next RWC.
Ardie is motivated at the moment, let him enjoy the ride, because he’s got going to be on it with Moana for much longer.
With the sentimentality of the old positions in mind though, I would love for Savea to become the 7 and ground game specialist. You still want him out their with freedom, which is more of a number 8’s role, but you also want him high on involvements (where if were talking about 8 traditionally, are typically low but dynamic/explosive) at the end of the game. Imagine him and Jimico coming on late to blow the opposition off the ball. There would be a number of good 7’s to rotate Ardie around as well.
I think that is a) sustainable for Ardie to not have pressure for all carry/creative moments, he can just play, and b) the best way to use personal in order to get a cruiser, crushing 6 type player in the team. New Zealand could get away without a guy as industrious as Sam Cane now, I reckon. Let Ardie fill that game and replace him with a power player instead.
Really though I think the third loose forward position is wide open, to mix it with the top starting pair of Sititi and Ardie. I could be Scott Barrett at 6, or an even longer shot like Ah Khoi. It could be a straight transition to Finau at 6, or Hoskins at 8, with the pair either side of him. Or it could be a repeat of last year and Dalton, Jacobsen, Kirifi, are want to do the dirty work of the run all day spot of 7. So what position the pair play, has more of an influence from which specialist Razor is going to choose with them on any particular day.
I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here, particularly with the need for a 6 who complements Ardie and Sititi. Simon Parker has been really impressive in that tight/loose big dog role (particularly dominant tackles) and Grace has been improving during the season, but I’d love to see Scooter play there more (one way of justifying his place in the light of how Holland is playing). But as a left-field option - what about Ah Kuoi at 6? No-one works harder or more effectively both sides of the ball, yet he’s got pace on the carry, soft hands, good rugby IQ. I reckon he’d make a great test 6, whose work in close would help Ardie and Sititi shine in the wider channels.
I like Parker too but I also think Ah Kuoi could shine at 6 in an AB team. Good lineout option, defense, hustle. Not quite big enough for an international lock. I don’t think Scooter is an International 6 - and needs to lift his game (which he is probably about to do) for his lock/captain role.
You’ve got Ardie on ruck duty too then?
“Nobody seemed to want to listen. Particularly All Blacks coaches.”
Razor is afraid to change anything. Alarmingly it’s only been injury that has given us new talent. If this doesnt change soon, Razors star will quickly wane.
Hopefully just a 1st year thing so they wouldn’t have too much disruption while changing everything over.
I think Razor once dropped Crockett or Franks or someone like that for a crucial super rugby game because it was necessary for the team, may have even been a playoff game.
He won’t pick or not pick players out of sentimentality or fear of taking a punt.
“Afraid”? What a load of crap. First year transitions for ABs coaches mirror exactly how Razor managed selections. The 2nd year is typically where new coaches start to churn.
Damn. Where would the selectors be without Marshie the Oracle 😂😂😂
“Yes boy! Me oh my!”
- Marshie the Oracle
Finau doesn’t quite seem to have the required level. At best, he’s an impact player off the bench, but nothing more. His work rate isn’t sufficient. For me, Grace is really making a case for himself this season. A trio of Grace/Sititi/Ardie would be a smart choice, with Lakai on the bench. If a 6–2 bench split is tested, Kirifi could be added, or even someone like Lio-Willie or Parker.
I’m not sure Jacobson and Papalii bring any real added value in this mix.
Razor and his staff are truly spoiled for choice, but they need a clear vision and strategy to find the right balance. It’s the same across the board… the halves, the centers, the back three. All the players and profiles are available to the coaches. They just need to make the right choices, because everything is really in place.
The All Blacks have nothing to envy from any other team
There is.. nothing more.. of that these days. One is just as important as the other, if not more.
I’ve really enjoyed the development in Finau’s game this year, but am very sad he hasn’t done the same amount of minutes, and we’ve missed his smoking of the first fives.
Grace is in the same ballpark of not adding any real value for me. Love for him to keep getting caps over the years though, fully deserved for effort.
In terms of form, Grace was great a couple of years ago but even Finau is outplaying him. The 2nd best No. 6 for most of the season has been Simon Parker, who is behind the amazing Miracle Fai’ilagi.
Jacobson is probably the best and most experienced option to go to 6 at test level even though he plays across all positions in the back row for the Chiefs.
Blackadder has fallen off a cliff.
Grace is not even close there's no Saders loosies that should make the all blacks in 6 finau is a great player he's an enforcer just like kaino that's what a 6 is but then before you even think about any Saders players you have parker as well or the hurricanes loosies
If we had a defensive machine who was like a third lock to play 6 and hit rucks all day that would be OK, but our other best loosies (Sititi and Lakai IMO) are both very strong ball carriers, both very strong over the ball, both excellent and strong defenders. Finding the best way to utilise three weapons will have better results than building a team around 1.
Scott Barrett is the #6 you just described a la Brodie/Whitelock. If we started him at #6 then to lock after 60mins, who would be our two starting locks? Tupou, Paddy, Holland . . ?
The loosies will then be Scooter 6, Ardie 7, Sititi 8.
I would like to see a big, physical blindside (Finau, Grace, or Parker) to start at 6, with 7 Savea and 8 Sititi. Then at the 60 minute mark sub two loose forward replacements (6-2 bench) with Lakai and Kirifi coming on fresh to up the tempo.
As Schmidt said, it's all about the balance of the trio. Ardie, Sititi and Cane worked well because the ball in hand (carrying and jackalling) of the first two was complemented by the high ruck clearing and tackling workrate of Cane.
So the important thing isn't the numbers on the back of the two stars, it's finding the right person to get through a mountain of unglamorous work so they don't have to.
You highlighted a great point about role over jersey number JD, and it was especially pertinent to single out the third person of the trifecta in this group.
Because you highlight for me what actual change we are going to see.
We’re not going to use that same make up this year. We’re going to get a power game instead. Ardie and Sititi as a duo I think will compliment the speed-to-work Cane no longer provides. Personally my preference would be to only rely on that them at set piece time, and Scott Barrett is the third that takes care of the middle of the park during phase play. Especially because I’ve really liked how much Holland has tried to through his weight around this year, and how able he’d be at doing Barrett’s tighter stuff.
True. The front 5 need to do their job well to enable the loosies to shine. It is a team game after all.
Wonder if there’s stats on who is leading turnover ball - you’d have to think Ardie would be up there.
Well see that’s an interesting question, because what do you mean by turnover ball?
Now I’m no statistician (ie I do not get paid for collecting stats for anybody) but that stat would include things like ‘a tackle dislodging the ball’. Where perhaps you are just talking about getting over the ball?
Remember these are for professionals, so incorporate things we may think unimportant, or just unrelated to a player role, but I think Opta are providing the best data for rugby, and they have a club rugby stats page you can google. There it breaks down turnovers, and you can see Ardie (by typing Super Rugby in the search field) with just 1 tackle turnover, and 11 steals, up near the top, with Tavatavanawai way out in front of everybody with 4 and 20 respectively. Squeezed in between those two are Reimer (low minutes) and Kirifi.
As Nickers pointed out as well, the head to head section on this website is really interesting reading too!
It's interesting that in Super Rugby it tends to be the openside who makes the most turnovers, whereas in test rugby it is more often the 8 or 2. The openside is usually leading the frontline making lots of tackles, not hanging back waiting to pounce.
It is a weirdly hard to find stat. Totally missing from Super.Rugby. RugbyPass has it but but only if you go to the player vs player analysis. There is no list that shows leading winners of turnovers. By comparing the obvious candidates Kirifi has 19, Reimer 16, McReight and Savea have 15, Papali’i 12.