Covert scouting, tit-for-tat raids and loopholes: the thorny world of Welsh talent ID
When Wayne Pivac announced his first Wales squad this week, a bevvy of fledgeling players were included. Taine Basham, Shane Lewis-Hughes are barely household names in their own backyards, let alone Wales, while Owen Lane, Jarrod Evans and Ashton Hewitt are some distance from being embedded into the public consciousness but are sure to become familiar to Welsh fans in the next World Cup cycle.
Indeed, it should be pointed out that with the Barbarians game sitting outside the Test window, only players based in Wales were considered. Yet there is another seam of Welsh talent that resides over the Severn Bridge and will be monitored as Wales look to the World Cup in 2023.
The term ‘Welsh qualified player’ has had loaded connotations in recent years but for all the nay-sayers, it can’t be denied that it has served Wales well. Take the recent World Cup semi-final starting XV.
Packing down at tighthead was Tomas Francis. With a soft Yorkshire timbre, his Welshness wasn’t obviously apparent until his coach at Doncaster, Chris Davey, spotted Francis’ lack of an ‘h’ in his Christian name. Further investigations found a grandmother hailing from Abercrave and the 21st behemoth has become the anchor for the Welsh scrum.
Packing down behind him was Jake Ball. You won’t find a Welsh lilt enunciating his crisp vowels but a father hailing from Pwllheli has seen him thrive in a Welsh shirt, even though he grew up in Ascot.
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These days, there are idiosyncrasies that make-up any Test side. In that same Welsh team, their top-scorer, Josh Adams, had to cut his teeth at Worcester Warriors for five years after being overlooked by his home region, the Scarlets, before signing for the Cardiff Blues this summer. Had he not committed to Wales, he could theoretically have been secured for England, should he have wished to.
The residency rule, too, complicates the selection minefield. It will be extended from three to five years at the end of 2020 and had that been in place years earlier it would have barred Hadleigh Parkes from his physical exertions in Japan.
It is a hugely emotive area and the naming this week of New Zealanders Willis Halaholo and Johnny McNicholl brought about mixed feelings from fans on their inclusion in the Wales squad. Once Gareth Anscombe is declared fit, Wales could feasibly select four Kiwis in their backline, a scenario that does not sit well with all followers of the game.
The selection of two uncapped Kiwis in the Wales squad hasn't gone down well with Gavin Henson
https://t.co/QtCwVDUnpr— RugbyPass (@RugbyPass) November 20, 2019
The WRU, for their part, know that with small players numbers, they have to join everyone else and box-clever when it comes to talent identification. For all the talk of cross-border raids in England, it isn’t solely one way.
It’s well known that Martin Corry and Josh Lewsey’s mothers used to converse in Welsh before England internationals and is far from surprising when you consider Cardiff, Newport, Bristol, Bath and Gloucester sit in such close proximity either side of the border. Tit-for-tat goes with the territory.
Aiding and abetting Wales in this needle in a haystack process is Paul Turner, the former Wales out-half. Turner, 59, would be the first to admit he’s been around the block. In his storied career, he has been player-coach of Sale and Bedford and coached at Gloucester, Harlequins, Wasps and the Dragons. He is now the head coach of Championship side Ampthill.
The coach who secured Taulupe Faletau’s signature when his cousins Billy and Mako Vunipola left Pontypool to go onto fame and fortune with England, for instance, knew all about Jonah Holmes before Welsh fans rifled him up the Google search rankings last October.
He could afford a wry smile having identified him in 2011 while coaching at Wasps and latterly watched him overlooked by Welsh regions under firm salary budgetary constraints.
Even though they have a potential cash windfall of £35million from CVC in the pipeline, in the current climate you would be mightily surprised if they unveiled players of the ilk of World Cup winners Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) or Damien de Allende (potentially Munster) just yet.
‘By accident or design, Pivac will hope for the bounce of the ball in the next ten weeks. Thirteen Scarlets for the Italy game? He wouldn’t dare, would he?’
– @OwainJTJones runs the rule over Wayne Pivac’s Wales resources heading into the 2020 Six Nations https://t.co/oKs8loqSxz— RugbyPass (@RugbyPass) November 14, 2019
Turner says talent ID isn’t an exact science but being well-connected and well-informed is advantageous. In his part-time role for four years, Turner says he’s yet to chat to the in-demand Pivac but is illuminating on the intricacies of talent identification.
“As far as I’m concerned, my role is I can get them to the 22. I find them, take a call and relay the information but it’s up to the region to see whether they can factor them into the squad.
“They have to decide whether they can afford him or if he is as good as I say he is. I have no influence after that. I have been in England for quite a while, having taught in many schools and coached, so my knowledge of rugby over here is pretty extensive. I’m a go-between really.”
Turner knows that with coveted scholarships available over the border, it’s no surprise that Welsh qualified players find themselves ensconced in the English system with choices to make and he spends much of his time watching as much rugby as possible.
“I was down at Hartpury last week and at London Irish this week watching the talent in the AASE Championship. There is no short-cut to unearthing talent.”
While a rapacious media will always be looking for the next big thing, Turner says it’s as rare a hen’s teeth that talent scouts will be in the dark. “Sometimes names are thrown out there, but it is virtually unheard of that we don’t know about it. Equally, it would be foolish to go around shouting names about.”
Great win for @@AmpthillRufc 19-13 @HartpuryRFC #At1pm #FieldOfDreams pic.twitter.com/W5PY0yiLYG
— ??????????????????? (@paulturnerrugby) November 2, 2019
With the eligibility regulations routinely tweaked, Turner says the battle to secure the best talent for Wales is nothing new. “It used to be that the best players would go over the border to St Luke’s, Loughborough and Newcastle University but these days it is closer to home, like Hartpury and Exeter. Alex Cuthbert came from Hartpury and so did Ross Moriarty, who represented England at age-grade level. He has gone on to win 41 caps for Wales. It’s a case of, ‘you win some, you lose some’.”
With rugby competitions taking place up and down the country, Turner says everybody involved accepts it is a game. “Habitually, I’ll go to the Wellington Festival at under-15s or under-18 level with a list of kids that I’m watching.
“They will have already been registered since 12 or 13, so you get there, talk to all the English lads who see us with knowing looks as if to say, ‘we know why you’re here’. It’s exactly the same for the Irish and Scottish scouts. It’s like a scene out of a Mike Bassett movie.”
There is no precise formula for spotting talent in Turner’s eyes, sometimes just a gut feeling. “When I go and watch rugby these days, I see if the player has rich potential and only then do I see if they are Welsh qualified. Often teachers don’t often know if their parents or grandparents are Welsh, so you have to do the investigative work.”
A lot of the information-sharing is covert. Word of mouth, a few phone calls, WhatsApp messages and a robust, trusting network. “Nobody knew about All Black Shannon Frizell’s Welsh qualification. I got onto that one but we lost him. Tyson, his brother, is still available but he plays league and he is getting paid well to do it.”
With a distinguished playing career behind him, Turner is routinely seeing the progeny of his former team-mates sprouting up. “I usually know somebody’s uncle or dad, which helps. Do you remember the Cardiff full-back Paul Rees? Well, his sister is Louis Rees-Zammit’s mother, who is now at Gloucester.
“I know Callum Sheedy through his uncle, Mikey Boyce, who was a fly-half with me at Newport and saw him playing for Cinderford against Ampthill five years ago. We all knew of his Irish, Welsh and English roots, so it’ll be interesting to see what he does.”
With England and Wales sharing a border, that invisible line separating two countries with a fierce 138-year sporting rivalry was always going to be ripe for the odd tug-of-war. For all the Jake Balls, there are players who escape Wales’ clutches for a plethora of reasons. “We were chasing James Lang but he went up to Scotland from Harlequins. Max Clark from Bath and Johnny Williams up at Newcastle are others who are Welsh qualified but chose not to move west.
“There are often reasons why they don’t come to Wales earlier. Perhaps they come back on the radar later because they haven’t got to play for who they want to play for. You can only assume most of them who haven’t sworn an allegiance are aiming for England, which is their call.”
? Pivac on @Barbarian_FC clash
"These are great games, everyone is looking forward to them and we've got a good crowd coming along"
? Wales v Barbarians double header (Men & Women)
? Sat Nov 30
?? https://t.co/2LImXIMgNy pic.twitter.com/xA2Qx8i8Kk— Welsh Rugby Union ??????? (@WelshRugbyUnion) November 21, 2019
One factor that plays into Wales’ hands is the ‘capture rule’ that Steve Shingler fell foul of a few years ago when attempting to play for Scotland after it was decided that the Wales A side would capture the players and not the under-20s, but no games have taken place.
Turner says loopholes are more and more difficult to exploit. “Understandably, the RFU have decided to keep a closer eye on their academies. England has more land, more towns, more chimney stacks and more players. In fairness, the English academies don’t get a lot wrong these days. The RFU have noticed this movement and they are probably thinking, ‘why are we pouring all this money into the academies if the Welsh, Scottish and Irish scouts are just picking the players off?’”
When it comes to country allegiances, it’s clear it works both ways. Every union is dancing to World Rugby’s latest regulations and the pawns in the middle are the players who have a dizzying array of choices for what can be a short-lived career. For all the bobbing and weaving around rugby’s law book, the protagonists ultimately only want what is best for the next generation, albeit in the colours of their home nation.
Rugby Pass’ next generation… over the Bridge
Sam Costelow (fly-half, Leicester Tigers)
Similar in playing style to Welsh qualified Callum Sheedy, who is keeping Ian Madigan out of the Bristol No10 shirt, the highly-rated fly-half played for Wales at under-18 and under-20 level and is on the books with Leicester, playing in the Premiership Cup this season after fracturing his jaw at the Junior World Championships.
Ioan Lloyd, 18 (fly-half, Bristol Bears)
The young fly-half has been a break-out success with Bristol Bears this season, scoring four tries in five games and his nimble-footed displays have caused eyebrows to be raised. His father Byron is from Blackwood and used to run the Eden Park shop in Cardiff with former Dragons coach Dai Rees. Schooled at Clifton College, it is thought that he will run out in red – not white – in the future.
Louis Rees-Zamitt, 18 (wing, Gloucester)
A fleet-footed, powerful wing who scored a scintillating YouTube-friendly 80-metre try against Bristol Bears A last year, Rees-Zamitt has signed a long-term deal with Gloucester but after starring for the Wales under-18s, he is said to be favouring sticking with Wales after growing up in Cardiff.
Sam Moore, 21, (No8, Sale Sharks)
Born in Cardiff and the son of former Wales international Steve and uncle Andy, Moore Jnr left Wales at the age of three where he was schooled in England and went to Sedburgh school on a scholarship. He has since signed a contract with Sale Sharks. The back row has represented England at every age-grade level but is yet to play for the Saxons, so can still play for either Wales or England.
Tommy Reffell, 20 (flanker, Leicester Tigers)
Son of the former Maesteg back row Gary, the Wales under-20 back row is very highly regarded in Welsh rugby circles. A natural openside with an eye for turnovers, big hits and a will-to-win, Reffell went to Pencoed School, following in the footsteps of Scott Gibbs, Gavin Henson and Gareth Cooper. His senior back row partner Guy Thompson rates Reffell highly, backing him as “the future for Wales”.
WATCH: The first episode of The Academy, the RugbyPass documentary series on Leicester Tigers which features Sam Costelow and Tommy Reffell
Comments on RugbyPass
Thanks Brett, love your articles which are alway pertinent. It’s a difficult topic trying to have a panel adjudicating consistently penalties for red card issues. Many of the mitigating reasons raised are judged subjectively, hence the different outcomes. How to take away subjective opinions?
4 Go to commentsYes Sir! Surprising, just like Fraser would also have escaped sanction if he was a few inches lower, even if it was by accident that he missed! Has there really been talk about those sanctions or is this just sensational journalism? I stopped reading, so might have missed any notations.
4 Go to commentsAI is only as good as the information put in, the nuances of the sport, what you see out the corner of the eye, how you sum up in a split second the situation, yes the AI is a tool but will not help win games, more likely contribute to a loss, Rugby Players are not robots, all AI can do if offer a solution not the solution. AI will effect many sports, help train better golfers etc.
45 Go to commentsIt couldn’t have been Ryan Crotty. He wasn’t selected in either World Cup side - they chose Money Bill instead. And Money Bill only cared about himself, and that manager he had, not the team.
25 Go to commentsYawn 🥱 nobody would give a hoot about this new trophy. End of the day we just have to beat Ireland and NZ this year then they can finally shut up 🤐
13 Go to commentsTalking bout Ryan Crotty? Heard Crotty say in a interview once that SBW doesen't care about the team . He went on to say that whenever they lost a big game, SBW would be happy as if nothing happened, according to him someone who cares would look down.. Personally I think Crotty is in the wrong, not for feeling gutted but for expecting others 2 be like him… I have been a bad loser forever as it matters so much to me but good on you SBW for being able to see the bigger picture….
25 Go to commentsThis sounds like a WWE idea so Americans can also get excited about rugby, RUGBY NEEDS A INTERNATIONAL CALENDER .. The rugby Championship and Six Nations can be held at same time, top 3 of six nations and top 3 of Rugby championship (6 nations should include Georgia AND another qualifying country while Fiji, Japan and Samoa/Tonga qualifier should make out 6 Southern teams).. Scrap June internationals and year end tours. Have a Elite top six Cup and the Bottom 6 in a secondary comp….
13 Go to commentsThe rugby championship would be even stronger with Fiji in it… I know it doesen’t fit the long term plans of NZ or Aus but you are robbing a whole nation of being able to see their best players play for Fiji…. Every second player in NZ and AUS teams has Fijian surnames… shame on you!!! World rugby won’t step in either as France and England has now also joined in…. I guess where money is involved it will always be the poor countries missing out….
84 Go to commentsNo surprise there. How hard can it be to pick a ball off the ground and chuck it to a mate? 😂
2 Go to commentsSometimes people just like a moan mate!
4 Go to commentsexcellent idea ! rugby needs this 💪
13 Go to comments9 Brumbies! What a joke! The best performing team in Oz! Ditch Skelton for Swain or Neville. Ryan Lonergan ahead of McDermott any day! Best selection bolter is Toole … amazing player
12 Go to commentsI like this, but ultimately rugby already has enough trophies. Trying to make more games “consequential" might prove to be a fools errand, although this is a less bad idea than some others. Minor quibble with the title of the article; it isn’t very meaningful to say the boks are the unofficial world champions when it would be functionally impossible for the Raeburn trophy not to be held by the world champions. There’s a period of a few months every 4 years when there is no “unofficial” world champion, and the Raeburn trophy is held by the actual world champions.
13 Go to commentsIts a great idea but one that I dont think will have a lot of traction. It will depend on the prestige that they each hold but if you can do that it would be great. When Japan beat the Boks (my team) I was absolutely devestated but I wont deny the great game they played that day. We were outclassed and it was one of the best games of rugby I have seen. Using an idea like this you might just give the the underdog teams more of an opportunity to beat the big teams and I can absolutely see it being a brilliant display of rugby. They beat us because they planned for that game. It was a great moment for Japan. This way we can remove the 4 year wait and give teams something to aim for outside of World Cup years.
13 Go to commentsHi, Dave here. Happy to answer questions 🥰
13 Go to commentsDon’t think that headline is accurate. It’s great to see Aus doing better but I’m not sure they’ve shown much threat to the top of the table. They shouldn’t be inflating wins against the lousy Highlanders and Crusaders either.
3 Go to commentsSuch a shame Roigard and Aumua picked up long term injuries, probably the two form players in the comp. Also, pretty sure Clarke Dermody isn’t their coach. Got it half right though.
3 Go to commentsOh the Aussie media, they never learn. At least Andrew Kellaway is like “Woah, yeah it’s great, but settle down there guys” having endured years of the Aussie media, fans, and often their players getting ahead of themselves only to fall flat on their faces. Have the “We'll win the Bledisloe for sure this year!” headlines started yet? It’s simple to see what’s going on. The Aussie teams are settled, they didn't lose any of their major players overseas. The Crusaders and Chiefs lost key experienced All Blacks, and Razor in the Crusaders case, and clearly neither are anywhere near as strong as last year (The Canes and Blues would probably be 3rd & 4th if they were). The Highlanders are annually average, even more so post-Aaron Smith and a big squad clean out. The two teams at the top? The two nz sides with largely the same settled roster as last year, except Ardie Savea for the Canes. They’ve both got far better coaches now too. If the Aussies are going to win the title, this is the year the kiwi sides will be weakest, so they better take their chance.
3 Go to commentsThe World Cup has to be the gold standard, line in the sand. 113 teams compete for what is the opportunity to make the pool stages, and then the knockout games for the trophy. The concept is sound. This must have been the rationale when the World Cup was created, surely? But I’m all for Looking forward and finding new ways for the SH to dominate the NH into the future. The autumn series needs a change up. Let’s start by having the NH teams come south every odd year for the Autumn/Spring series games?
13 Go to commentsWhat’ll happen when the AI models of the future go back in time and try to destroy the AI models of the past standing in their way of certain victory?
45 Go to comments