'It's that whole resilience and ability to get up and go again... the past is eaten bread'
They were the Fab Four, the brightest minds in the English game tasked with repeating the World Cup glory of 2003. England’s 2015 failure, though, quickly cost Stuart Lancaster, Andy Farrell, Graham Rowntree and Mike Catt their jobs… but they didn’t fall on hard times.
Lancaster is credited with Leinster’s revival, Farrell is Ireland’s head-coach-in-waiting when Joe Schmidt departs at the end of this year, and Rowntree, who assisted with Farrell on the 2017 Lions, had a spell at Harlequins before linking up with Georgia.
None of the trio have shunned the media limelight regarding their post-England careers. They’re still accessible and influence the news, but Catt has applied himself differently.
Working as Italy’s attack coach under Conor O’Shea, he has steered cleared and preferred to keep himself to himself. Once bitten, twice shy and all that. He eventually broke his silence last year, giving an interview to 2003 England teammate Ben Kay.
But there was nothing else until he picked up the phone on Tuesday after kicking practice in Rome to give RugbyPass a rare insight into how life has really treated him since that dark winter of 2015 when Lancaster and his assistants were all bombed out of England roles they were contracted in until 2020.
(Continue reading below…)
There’s no beating about the bush in confronting the let-down. Catt has always lived by the premise that you have got to initially fail to be successful – and he now feels all the better as a Test level coach for England failing at their own World Cup.
“You can’t change it,” he said. “I have learnt a hell of a lot from it. It was my first big coaching gig and I was still pretty inexperienced when I was doing that, but they are all learning experiences.
“You have to fail before you win. I didn’t win a World Cup until I was 32 and, believe me, I had a lot of ups and downs in my career. It’s that whole resilience and ability to get up again and go again. That [the past] is what it is, eaten bread, and that’s what I do.
“You’re talking about 10 minutes of rugby, losing to Wales in the last 10 minutes of the game. That is what it [2015] boiled down to. Wales did it again the other week to England. They are a formidable side.”
Now 47, it was Catt’s old London Irish connection with Conor O’Shea that tempted him to take up the daunting challenge of turning whipping boys Italy into a far more competitive entity.
It’s been a slow fix. Management have savoured just six wins in 31 outings and have struggled to end an inherited Six Nations losing streak that now counts up to 20 matches. Catt doesn’t dwell on these stark numbers, though. His bigger picture says hidden improvements are occurring and the outlook isn’t as dark as it’s generally made out.
“Conor got me up to London Irish in 2004 and I’d some good years there playing and coaching. Working with Conor, I knew what sort of environment he creates.
“I knew I could definitely complement his enthusiasm and his ability to create these environments with some technical support. It has been tough, but in the same breath it has been very good.
“I’ve learnt a hell of a lot about myself and coaching in different environments. I’ve had to learn a new language. It has been brilliant for me from a coaching perspective.
“It has been hugely rewarding and I’ve really had to dig into all the depths to find out how to coach these guys, how to get these guys to believe in themselves that they can compete against the best in the world,” explained Catt, the Port Elizabeth-born South African whose move to Bath in 1992 transformed his own playing career.
“That has been the challenge for me with this group of players, that we can grow. Conor has created a brilliant environment. There is still massive issues with certain things around the system, but Steve Aboud and all those guys are putting this in place and it is not an easy fix. There is no easy fix. This is the reality of it and we are in the middle of it and we have got to try and perform.
“I know everybody is talking about 19, 20 losses and whatever. For us it’s about small wins, small margins that we just need to keep building on because the others teams that we’re playing against in a World Cup year are all capable of probably winning a World Cup.
“When you’re in this system and understand what it’s all about, not the hardships but where the team has come from, what did Conor take over, all that sort of stuff, it’s an easy step to be involved and we’re getting players that are growing. Tito Tebaldi the other week against Ireland performed exceptionally well and our tight five, they stood up.
“Little things like that make a huge difference for us, be we have still got a lot to learn. We’re at the start of the cycle rather than on an eight-year thing like Owen Farrell, all these England guys who have been together for eight, nine years. This group really has only been together for two, three years other than Sergio (Parisse) and (Leonardo) Ghiraldini. We’re at the start off a process and it takes two World Cup cycles really to make the next jump up.
“That’s the reality of it. We’re 15th in the world for a reason – although that’s a bit unfair too because we’re playing all the big sides all the time. It’s not an excuse, but these guys know where they are going and it just takes time to get there.
“The other sides have become so good, but we knew that. Having worked with England for four years prior to this role, we said that 2019 was England’s year really because of the experience of the players at the 2015 World Cup.”
The England Four went their separate ways in difficult circumstances, but three currently have similar work practices as Catt’s commute to Rome from England mirrors Lancaster’s work in Ireland and Rowntree’s in Georgia. They all fly in when needed. It’s a lifestyle that suits Catt just fine.
“I was living in Italy, but we put the kids back into UK schools. I commute over and back. International rugby is a brilliant lifestyle because you have got a real good family/work balance.
“With three young kids, my family is massively important and they can come and visit me in Rome, have a week here, watch a game of rugby and see all the sights. That plays in well to the whole family thing… it [commuting] works because what you can do is just focus on what you need to do when you’re here in Italy, so it’s easy.”
The Italian language isn’t his strongest attribute. “I understand a lot of it. When I have a beer I can speak it,” he said laughing. “The guys are absolutely fair and brilliant. I left school for a reason, to be a rugby player.
“The language has been quite difficult, but also in the same breath it has been really good because I have had to change the way I coach and present. I’ll look back at this challenge, depending when it ends of course, with a lot of fondness. I’ve probably learned more in this than I have anywhere else.”
Twickenham has a special place in Catt’s heart. Thirty-four of his 75 England caps were won at the south-west London rugby cathedral while 26 of his 46 England matches as assistant to Lancaster also took place there.
His first return to his old stamping ground in 2017 became infamous for the no-contest ruck approach adopted by Italy to exploit an offside loophole that has since been close. Is there another ploy up the sleeve this weekend when the Azzurri visit again?
“We have read over the rule book about 50,000 times and we have’t come up with a new one yet. I think it’s time we just do what we have to do… we put in a competitive performance against Ireland and need to back it up against one of the best teams in the world, possibly a World Cup-winning side this year.
“I have got so many fond memories of Twickenham. It’s an amazing place. I love going there. The people there have been very supportive over the years so for me going back to where it all started, it’s huge. Very fond memories.
“It has been a while since I have been there, but I’m not a person that looks too deep into things. I love the occasion, love the fans, love everything about Twickenham. But it’s just another game played in an amazing stadium.
“It’s not about me, it’s about a group of players that are going over and need to put in a good performance. Unfortunately we’re getting England on the back of a loss like we have had New Zealand twice after Ireland beat them.
“There is going to be not a backlash but there’s going to be a huge anticipation from England to really produce the goods again. We need to be prepared for that.”
Comments on RugbyPass
Safas are so triggered by Ireland. 3 consecutive losses, incl RWC. 8 losses out of last 12 Tests. Always excuses, of course, with Bok fans. Now Rassie with his “88%” nonsense, the Claytons Excuse is an embarrassment to Bok teams of the past when every test mattered. Their fickle mojo will be on edge for the Ireland tour. Have the referees been appointed yet ? They will need security. Have WR laid out strict guidelines for TMO’s and replays on the stadium screens ? Will the constant stoppages from Bok forwards for cramps and bootlaces be tolerated ? We’re not talking a dominant Springbok team here, they won the LOTTO Cup and they know it whether they admit it or not. The Disney doco has their fans positively fermenting internally, its going to be a nasty hangover if they get beaten on home soil. What will the excuses be then……
68 Go to commentsGreat role model.
2 Go to commentsOne significant tell, not a single Waratahs player stopped to whinge to the ref about Finau’s tackle. They got on with playing the game. Great tackle.
8 Go to commentsWouldn’t be a bad move if Ireland pulled into SA with a young side. Particularly in Pretoria. Invaluable experience getting thumped in the bosveld.
68 Go to commentsIreland. The Princess Diana of Rugby. I never cheered so much for a team as i did for the All Blacks in that QF.
68 Go to commentsWill be great to see the Leinster first XV back in action again after their cotton wool time…
1 Go to commentsLooked up Grant Constable on google and reply was doppelgänger for Ben Smith
68 Go to commentsIt is so good that we now all get excited and debate who is best and emotionally get involved. We all back our teams which is great. Up until about 15-20 years ago, NZ was basically on its own, and then Saffa, Aussie and sometimes French and English were there. We now have at least 5-6 really top sides and another 4 who keep improving. This is so healthy. So we should not resort to rubbish comments and unhealthy debate, but rather all be chuffed that the product we watch is not competitive, exciting and often uncertain. It would be so good if World Rugger could find a way to align the rules to professional players as well as spectators. Live rugby games are SO boring as there is SO much down time as we wait for refs and TMOs and whoever else to look at every small event going back endless phases with the hope of eventually find a minute infringement to then decide cancel what was a wonderful try. This is the ultimate cork back in the bottle moment and feels like every balloon is always being popped. Come on- we must be better with the rules.
68 Go to comments“upon leaving said establishment I tripped over a stool knocking some bottles into the air and as I fell I accidently dislodged a police officer’s teaser who was passing by on an unrelated matter there by landing on said taser which caused it to discharge 50,000 watts into me. Out of shock I shouted Ireland are going to win the world cup. Upon waking up I apologised for the distress caused by my Ireland comment. The matter is closed. If you wish to pursue this matter may I remind you what I told Wayne Barnes when he sent me off. I AM A BIG ASS MAN”. Or was it “I AM A BIG ASS, MAN” or was it “I AM A BIG ASSMAN”?
2 Go to commentsThe only championship the Boks hold are: Great value for the incompetence of referees during the RWC Moaning endlessly and champions of spewing utterly ignorant 💩 at all times. Displaying the dangers of a third world education End of.
68 Go to commentsSouth Africa and Rassie do a phenomenal job of treating the 4 years in between World Cups as nothing more than a training exercise to build squad depth. The Six Nations money that keeps Irish rugby afloat is unfortunately too important to allow the same approach, and basic population size means we'll never get close to matching the depth of South Africa, England and France. That being said, Irish rugby is in a relatively good place and slowly improving inch by inch. If the other three provinces can pull the finger out and actually develop some players it'd be even better.
68 Go to commentsGood on Clarke for taking on the criticism and addressing his deficiencies, principally his laziness.
2 Go to comments“It is the people’s favourite against the actual favourite. It is the people’s champions against the actual champions. I’m joking, but it’s going to be a fantastic series.” Why did Darcy make that joke knowing it would be used as click bait? Why did RP headline it as a serious comment? Anyway, the tired comment isn’t very astute. SA players may have played more games etc. Darcy over estimated as a pundit.
68 Go to commentsNot sure Frisch will ever make the French team with Depoortère and Costes waiting in the wings to take over from Danty and Fickou.
1 Go to commentsThe Irish are tired and the Boks are old. The test series won't confirm who is best in the world, it will confirm which team needs to pursue the task of rebuilding with the most urgency.
68 Go to commentsGrant, the first time I have seen an article written by you. Maybe I have missed your previous stuff. These days all professional players effectively play a common season so all top players are equally tired, or rested. That is the job of the coaching ticket to build squad depth and juggle resources so players are ‘ fresh’ when the big games come. Possibly Ireland are less inclined to juggle squad compared to Rassie, who is prepared to take the risk to rest players as well as build depth throughout the year so come WC he has a full squad, experienced and rested enough to win 7 games. After all, to win WC you need to get through the tournament and then win the final big 3 games. Ireland should try and build a bit so come final 3 they are ready. So far only played final 1(QF). I am so looking forward to the Irish tour. Hopefully Rassie has enough time to align his guys, as he draws them from across the globe, and not from 2 sides locally( eg Leinster, Munster). No excuses, going to be exciting.
68 Go to commentsIn football, teams get fined and sometimes docked points for deliberately fielding weakened teams yet Leinster can pretty much do as they please with no comebacks. Could it be because Ireland run the URC? Could it be that Ireland run the ERC? Whichever it is, it stinks!!
6 Go to commentsIreland are only the People’s Champions in Irish eyes. The rest of the world do not care for them very much because of attitudes of people like Gordon, Ferris, Best, Jackman…I could go on!!
68 Go to commentsNot sure how Karl Dickson can ever ref a Quins game, he played for the club for 8 years as understudy to Care and is still close friends with half the team
3 Go to commentsAre bookies taking bets on how many times Vunipola's eventual statement will use the term “elders"? My money is on at least 4 times.
4 Go to comments