Size differences in No8s across the Premiership, PRO14 and Top 14
The size of No8s is something that often varies at all levels of rugby. Just look at the recent World Cup semi-finals: Duane Vermeulen, Billy Vunipola, Kieran Read and Ross Moriarty significantly differed from one to another and there was almost a 30kg (4st 10lb) difference between the Englishman and the Welshman.
Each player is equally used in different ways, be it in the tight or in the wider channels of the field, to play to their strengths. This variation is also seen in the club game across Europe when comparing the average height and weight of starting No8s in last weekend’s Top 14, Guinness PRO14 and Gallagher Premiership matches.
The average height was more or less identical when comparing the three leagues. No8s stood at 191cms in the Top 14 and the PRO14 (6ft 3ins) and only a centimetre shorter in the Premiership at 190cms (6ft 3ins).
Whereas it has been shown that the Top 14 opt for slightly taller flankers as they provide more options in the lineout than the leagues in the home nations, there seems to be parity across Europe with their back row partners.
While Montpellier did field Jacques du Plessis in the eight shirt – he was the only player in Europe to stand at two metres or over at 201cms (6ft 7ing) – Lyon played Liam Gill who stands at 185cms (6ft). However, there was generally a similar range of heights across all three leagues.
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Traditionally, a No8 is not a main lineout option. Some sides do deploy them as a jumper, others use them as a first receiver from the lineout. So the height in this position is an irrelevance and goes down to a coach’s preference and style from team to team.
However, there is a much clearer differentiation across Europe when comparing the weights of No8s – and this is more important. The primary role in this position is usually to be the safest ball carrier as they are often required to make the most carries in the pack.
A larger player is generally a more secure option and that is why the No8 is frequently the heaviest member of the back row. But there is a clear rift in Europe between the French and English sides… and the teams in the PRO14 in terms of weight.
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Both the Top 14 and Premiership No8s weighed 113kg (17st 11lbs) on average compared to 108kg (17st) on average in the PRO14.
This is a clear insight into the philosophies of teams across Europe, as a heavier No8 perhaps aligns with the reputation that the Top 14 has of playing a tighter, slower brand of rugby. Similarly, that is why their flankers weighed in heavier across Europe.
Conversely, the lighter No8s used in the PRO14 are indicative of a faster game, which was certainly the case as well with regards to their openside flankers. However, in this position there is no clear divide between the Celtic nations and those from Italy and South Africa, with no discernible difference either from nation to nation.
The PRO14 did have two players under 100kgs, Scarlets’ Uzair Cassiem and Ospreys’ Morgan Morris who was a surprising 83kgs (13st 1lb) according to his club’s website and 90kgs (14st 2lbs) on the PRO14’s website.
Both players can play at the side of the scrum as well, which seems to be apparent across the league as fewer teams in the PRO14 operate with a specialist No8, albeit the likes of Cardiff Blues’ Nick Williams still remain.
This may be partly down to injury crises currently at different teams, as well as the choice to rest players before two rounds of European competitions. Edinburgh’s Bill Mata was just one example of a recognised No8 being rested.
Conversely, the Top14 and the Premiership play more recognised No8s who tend to be heavier. This is certainly the case in England where three players weighed over 120kgs (18st 12lbs) – Vunipola, Nathan Hughes and Sione Kalamafoni – compared to two in France and none in the PRO14.
Both Vunipola and Hughes exclusively play at No8, while Kalamafoni also plays the majority of his rugby in that position. Likewise, du Plessis and Bayonne’s Mat Luamanu were the two players in the Top 14 over 120kgs and they can play lock as well.
However, three of the twelve No8s in England weighed under 105kgs (16st 7lbs) compared to only two of the 14 in France which shows a wider range of players in England.
What was interesting is that the two lightest No8s were from the top two teams in the league, Exeter Chiefs’ 103kg (16st 3lbs) Sam Simmonds and Northampton Saints’ 104kg (16st 5lbs) Teimana Harrison. Of course, Saracens would be second in the league without their 35-point deduction and they boast the heaviest No8 in Vunipola, so this does show there are different ways to achieving success.
Moreover, England boss Eddie Jones has preferred a heavier eight throughout his tenure, which is why he has largely used Vunipola and Hughes, the two heaviest in last weekend’s round of fixtures in England. On the other hand, Simmonds and Harrison have struggled to break into the England team over the past four years.
Although an ACL injury has not helped the Exeter man, he has sometimes been deemed too light to play at the back of the scrum for England. But Rob Baxter uses his pace to devastating effect for the Chiefs, particularly alongside a formidable pack. He has also shown this for England as well, but still struggles to fit the mould that Jones desires.
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It would be wrong to say, though, that a No8’s role is simply to crash the ball up into contact as they serve as key distributors and are fundamental in linking the forwards and backs. For example, the two heaviest No8s in Europe last weekend were Saracens’ Vuinpola and Cardiff’s Williams, both weighing 130kgs (20st 6lbs) alongside Luamanu.
Now it would be a gross undervaluation of both players to simply describe them as carriers, as there is much more to their game. Vunipola’s distribution from lineouts and the scrum, as well as the frequently-deployed pull back to Owen Farrell, has been used to for both England and Saracens to great success.
Likewise, Williams’ offloading game is barely matched by anyone in Europe. Both players are pivotal to how their teams play, particularly Vunipola, who is so frequently a top performer for England and Saracens.
As this comparison covered only one weekend, the fact that some players were injured or rested must be taken into account as well as tactical choices for specific matches.
Then again, it doesn’t mean the first choice No8 would be any different in size to their replacement. Likewise, the team with the lighter No8 actually won 61 per cent of the games across the three leagues, but that is probably not significant enough to read into.
(*all stats are taken from player profiles of their respective teams)
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Comments on RugbyPass
The Hurricanes are good, especially with a decent coach now. However, let’s be real, the Crusaders and Chiefs are clearly a good degree weaker without the players they’ve lost overseas now. The Canes lost one player. It’s also why the aussie teams ‘seem’ to be stronger.
9 Go to commentsOr you could develop your own players instead of constantly taking from the SH competition and weakening it in the process? With all the player and financial resources these unions have compared to SH countries you’d think they could manage that, or is weakening the SH comps and their national sides an added bonus? Probably.
3 Go to commentsNot so fast Aaron, we might need you in black yet lol. God knows he’d be a lot less nerve-racking than hot and (very) cold players like Perofeta. It’s really a shame Reuben Love isn’t playing 10, we’ve got enough 15 options.
4 Go to commentsAnd those from the NH still seem to be puzzled (and delighted) why NZ’s depth isn’t what it once was. Over 600 NZ players overseas, that’s insane. This sort of deal is why Super Rugby coaches have admitted they struggle now to find enough quality to fill out their squads.
6 Go to commentsArticle intéressant ! La question devrait régulièrement se poser pour les jeunes français originaires de Nouvelle-Calédonie, Wallis-et-Futuna et de Polynésie entre la Nouvelle-Zélande et la Métropole… Difficile pour la fédération française de rugby de se positionner : soit le choix est fait de dénicher les jeunes talents et de les faire venir très tôt en Métropole, au risque de les déraciner, soit on prend le risque de se les faire “piller” par les All Blacks qui, telle une araignée, essaye de récupérer tous les talents des îles du Pacifique… À la France de se défendre en développant l’aura du XV de France et des clubs français dans ses collectivités d’Outre-mer !
3 Go to commentsWrong bay. He needs to come to the REAL BAY which is Bay Of Plenty and have a crack at making the Chiefs.
3 Go to commentsIs Barrett going play full back??? They already have all the centers…
15 Go to commentsForgive my ignorance, I might not fully understand so would appreciate clarification: Didn’t the Bulls have to fly with three different carriers, paid for by the South African Rugby Union, whilst Edinburgh got a chartered flight sponsored by EPCR? Also, as far as I understand it South African teams don’t yet share in the revenue from the competition and are not allowed to host Semi-finals or Finals at home. Surely if everyone wants South Africans to “take the competition seriously” then they must make South Africans feel welcome, allow them to share in the revenue, and give them the same levels of access as the teams from the other countries. Just a reminder that South Africa has a large and passionate Rugby audience. Just by virtue of our teams being a part of these competitions means that more of us are likely to watch the knockout games, even if our teams haven’t qualified. It would be silly to alienate such a large audience by making them feel unwelcome.
18 Go to commentsFirst of all. This guy is very much behind the curve. All the bleating, whingeing, whining and moaning took place days ago already. Not adding anything to the topic other than more bleating, whingeing, whining and moaning. 🍼 Second of all, not one mention of the fact that South African teams can’t get home semi finals or finals. The tournament was undermined and devalued by the administrators. 🤡 Thirdly, football teams often have to juggle selections in mid week games, premier games, champions league games etc. and will from time to time prioritize certain titles over others. 🐒 And lastly FEK Neil, and anyone else for that matter, for insisting on telling teams how to manage themselves. If they make what is largely a business decision that suits them and doesn’t suit you - tough shite. 💩 It’s not rocket science as to why the Bulls did what they did. If this guy is too slow to figure it out (and is deliberately not mentioning one of the key reasons why) then he isn’t a journalist. He should join the rest of us pundit plebs in comments section. 🥴
18 Go to commentsSo the first door to knock on Rob is Parliament followed by HMRC. The Irish Revenue deliver a 40% tax relief rebate on the HIGHEST EARNING TEN YEARS of every pro Irish rugby players contract earnings at retirement. That goes a long way to both retaining their best talent and freeing up wages for marquee players. Who knows, if that had been in place in the UK, you might not have been able to poach Hoggy and Jonny Gray from Glasgow…!!!
3 Go to comments1. True, if that “free” ticket means access to all but the prized exhibit - EVIP only. SA cannot host semis, even if they’ve earned it (see Sharks vs ASM Clermont Auvergne at… Twickenham Stoop). 2. Why no selective outrage over Lyon doing the exact same thing a week earlier? Out of all the countries France send the most “B teams”, why nobody talking about “disrespect” and “prioritising domestic leagues” and “kicking them out”? 3. Why no mention of the Sharks fielding all of their Springboks for the second rate Challenge cup QF? No commitment? 4. Why no mention of all the SA teams qualifying for respective euro knock out comps in the two seasons they’ve been in it? How many euro teams have qualified for KO’s in their history? Can’t compete? 5. Why no mention of SA teams beating French and English giants La Rochelle and Saracens? How many euro teams have done that in their history? Add no quality? The fact is that SA teams are only in their second season in europe, with no status and a fraction of the resources. Since joining the URC, SA has seen a repatriation of a number of players, and this will only grow once SA start sharing in the profits of competing in these comps, meaning bigger squads with greater depth and quality, meaning they don’t have to prioritise comps as they have to now - they don’t have imports from Pacifica and South America and everywhere else in between like “European” teams have - also less “Saffas” in Prem and T14, that’s what we want right? 'If the South Africans are in, they need to be all in' True, and we have to ensure we give them the same status and resources as we give everyone else to do just that. A small compromise on scheduling will go a long way in avoiding these situations, but guess what, France and England wont compromise on scheduling because they ironically… prioritise their domestic comps, go figure!
18 Go to commentsthe success of the premiership can be summarized by : only 10 teams. It makes a huge difference with the overcrowded top 14 (let us not talk about Leinster and URC…)
1 Go to commentsGood for him. The ABs were fooling around again with converted fullbacks that had a penetration of a marshmallow. Laumape or as Aki has shown for Ireland, go forward is important in the centres. If it had been DMac - Aki- Aumua - Ioane- Telea- Jordan in France the final result would have been different.
4 Go to commentsDan Carter a apporté son professionnalisme, des méthodes de travail, un esprit qui manquaient à l’USAP. Son influence, même une fois blessé a été énorme. Et pour citer une anecdote, certains soirs il venait de lui-même à l’entraînement des jeunes pour dispenser ses conseils. On ne peut pas compter ce qu’il a apporté au club en heures de jeu sur le terrain. Est-ce que le club en a eu pour son argent ? Avec la publicité sur son nom et le titre, je suppose que oui.
1 Go to commentsThe SA sides are suffering from a bum rap here. There isn’t a side anywhere in the world that would do things differently in their shoes. They’ve been set up to fail in the EPCR comps by vested interests, with last minute intercontinental travel requirements that costs an arm and a leg to book in advance just on the possibility they might be required. And the total nonsense that denies any chance of home venues is entirely biased and absolutely unsporting. Either EPCR, the Top14 & the Gallagher Premiership get it sorted on a fair and equitable sporting basis for ALL participants or expect the ridicule to continue. Right now, these comps are a joke!
18 Go to commentsSA sides should do the right thing and leave the champions cup, they are lowering the standard with completely one sided games, not up to the right level. The greatest club tournament in the world is being banjaxed by the weak SA sides.
18 Go to commentsCouldnt agree more. SA sides need to show more committment and really have a go at the Champions Cup. Its quite possibly the most prestigious title in Europe and SA sides need to respect that prestige and serve up their best. EPCR needs to do more to ensure that sides from South Africa and sides travelling to and from SA have a better chance in this competition. The Bulls were put in a really difficult position of having to travel there and back in one week. One could argue that this is what the SA sides signed up for and that La Rochelle didnt complain or send out weakened sides despite having to travel to SA and back and play on successive weekends but surely the situation is also unfair on La Rochelle as well and so EPCR needs to think about successive gameweeks and the travel effect of the competition
18 Go to commentsI hadn’t watched much Canes this season but sat through a replay of that Chiefs game with no distractions. That pack is beastly. I really like the look of Iose. He loves the tough stuff. The first Quins clip may be the best I have even seen for a TH driving his opposite into oblivion. i need to take your word for the contribution of Walker, but Collier there with a straight back pushing up from under was a lovely thing to see. Have you fallen in love with Baxter also, Nick? I think Stuart Barnes may have written his column about him recently, naked. He positively frothed.
15 Go to commentsSmart guy. I wish he was running the RFU or something!
3 Go to commentsWhy Barrett, when Leinster already have at least 4 top centres.?
15 Go to comments