John Kirwan's controversial Bledisloe red card remarks on The Breakdown lit up social media
The controversial view of former All Blacks winger John Kirwan regarding last Saturday’s Bledisloe Cup sendings-off and his desire to have red cards removed from rugby unsurprisingly sparked a veritable storm online. His comments came following the match in Brisbane where Ofa Tu’ungafasi and Wallaby Lachlan Swinton were shown first-half red cards by referee Nic Berry for tackles to the head.
Kirwan, the 1987 World Cup-winning All Blacks star, discussed the incidents up when appearing on the latest episode of The Breakdown, the weekly Sky Sport NZ TV rugby programme.
The former Italy coach said that “our game does not need red cards” as “people have paid good money to watch a game of rugby with 15-a-side”. He suggested players should be replaced instead or put on report.
However, Kirwan’s opinion was dismissed as being “out of touch” and “archaic” by many people online.
Former Canada international Cameron Pierce, who was forced to retire in 2016 from severe post-concussion syndrome, told Kirwan to “get with the times”. Meanwhile, ex-England international Ugo Monye labelled the comments “unhelpful and irresponsible”.
Wow, I hope this guy is joking! The game has changed mate, get with the times ?????
— Cameron Pierce (@cdpierce4) November 11, 2020
The area where so many disagreed with Kirwan was that player welfare must surely take precedence over the entertainment value of a match – and what was ironic about this most recent match was that the two red cards ensured the game as a spectacle did not actually suffer, with Australia eventually winning by just two points.
Unhelpful and irresponsible comments https://t.co/E9gscj7UzF
— ugo monye (@ugomonye) November 11, 2020
Furthermore, while most people would agree that there is rarely any malicious intent from players when tackling, a red card is there as a deterrent. However, some people were also in agreement with Kirwan, feeling that a red card was no longer working as a deterrent.
These tackles are certainly dangerous, but the point Kirwan made was that there were alternatives to red cards as this punishment was not stopping players from doing these type of offences, particularly as the majority of them are mistakes, albeit reckless.
Totally agree with him 100%. These tackles are made in games being played at a ferocious pace, and the carrier changes his body shape continuously, making it almost impossible for the tackler to anticipate. Like he says, they are not trying to hurt people.
— Jeremy Quin (@Thaiblue) November 11, 2020
He’s not contesting the reds – he’s saying that the sanction ruins the spectacle. It’s an imperfect rule – dangerous and intentional foul play needs strong punishment but players are fallible, they make mistakes without intending harm. I like his idea of enforced substitution.
— Jon Dewey (@Writethinking) November 11, 2020
There should be punishment, but red for a “slip” or unintentional hit is wrong.
Especially when you are allowing players to run at full force into rucks into the back of the head / neck of the jackler, 100’s of times a game.
It’s inconsistent and it’s hypocrital.
— AndrewJoy (@AndrewJ0y) November 11, 2020
It’s rugby union, it’s physical.
Why doesn’t F1 have a speed limit?
Why doesn’t cricket have bowling speed restriction?
Why does boxing still allow punches to the head?
The laws have gone to far and rugby is getting lost in them.
— AndrewJoy (@AndrewJ0y) November 11, 2020
Both Super Rugby Aotearoa and AU experimented with law variations this year around the red card where the offending player was removed from the game but the team were allowed to replace them after 20 minutes to prevent games becoming too one-sided.
The counter to this experiment – and to Kirwan’s stance – has always been that this may see a rise in key players being targeted early on in games, with the side committing the act of foul play knowing they do not risk being down to 14 men for the rest of the game.
That is only conjecture and did not prove to be the case in either competition in Australia or New Zealand. Only one red card was brandished on either side of the Tasman, which was for two yellow cards.
In all sports, there is never complete agreement among players, pundits and fans, but the framework around the rugby union red card is constantly being adjusted and there will no doubt be more change to come. Tu’ungafasi received a three-week ban this week for his tackle, while Swinton was given four.
These rulings by World Rugby are SAFETY related, not ENTERTAINMENT related.
Concussion is REAL, it KILLS, and we MUST try to prevent these injuries.
A red card and ban will help to re-educate players who consistently offend.
Very irresponsible attitude.
— Kevin Westlake (@WestlakeKevin) November 11, 2020
What absolute garbage. Both clear reds. How he gets paid to be a pundit is beyond me? The tackle technique is wrong and this is how we remove it from the game for the safety of the players. They could have just adjusted a few cm’s lower and would be a gold hit.
— Alexander Evans (@AlexDavidEvans) November 11, 2020
Just shows that great players aren’t necessarily that bright. I suspect if it had been any other game with any other teams he’d have said nothing. Grow up Kirwan, sometimes the Gods that are AB’s make mistakes. ????
— David Cookman (@davidiafrica) November 11, 2020
Idiotic and irresponsible view from JK. Just because there was no malice does not mean it’s not a red card. Unintended yes but dangerous nonetheless. There has to be better technique. The body position of Swindon and Tongafasii is simply too high.
— Antony Hill (@AntonyMHill) November 11, 2020
Drivel.. Unless you are psychic you can’t know what someone is thinking. Red Cards are for dangerous play. That was dangerous, poor technique I’m sure as a kid he was taught better. Red cards will make players learn to do better than the ‘stop at all costs’ challenge like this
— DIANE SAMUEL (@dilly_dot) November 11, 2020
This is irresponsible and frankly archaic response. Red cards are required in the game. The players need to take responsibility. Why is it that we don’t see 2 RC every game because most players have adapted away from this dangerous play.
— Robbie Bourke (@robbie_bourke) November 11, 2020
I understand that these are his personal views but expressing them so forcefully, whilst working on TV as a pundit, is, I believe irresponsible.
He seems to be putting the enjoyment of the spectators above player safety.— Ponty Pete (@DandoPete) November 11, 2020
Someone needs to define how a game is ruined.
Perhaps if we turn it around
Star player lost to a concussion from high tackle for the season
Career ending neck injury from tip tackle
I could go on
Red cards protecting players welfare trumps your 80 mins of sadness— Because I said so (@CaudalRaphe) November 11, 2020
“I don’t think there is anyone in our game who goes out to intentionally hurt someone”.
Kirwan completely out of touch with the modern day player. Why do we keep listening to old men? Why are they still on TV?
— Tim O’Callaghan (@jollyswagman340) November 11, 2020
If there is no red cards then how long will it be before someone smashes Kolbe or Barret just to get them off the field coz you wont get a red card. Calling Kirwan a pundit these days is just having a laugh really. They dont hurt someone intentionally coz of the red cards Idiot!
— Wihan JvR (@Wihan360) November 11, 2020
It is absolutely ridiculous – absolutely ridiculous that this ignorance and attitude is tolerated let alone given a platform.
Guess you guys clipped and pinned this for clicks and kicks but it’s irresponsible to be promoting idiocy like this and frankly disgustingly dangerous
— Edward Paul (@Edward_Paul34) November 11, 2020
I can’t help but admire Sir John’s ability to seamlessly combine different fashion looks into one outfit. Pocket square to connect with older fans, hoodie to connect with the youth & a magicians jacket to connect with rugby fans within the Magic circle ? #Flawless https://t.co/olsZJsPCpL
— Jerry Flannery (@jerryflannery) November 11, 2020
Comments on RugbyPass
Sorry Morgan you must have been the “go to for a quote” ex player this week. Its rnd 6 and there is plenty of time to cement a starting 15 and finishing 8 so I have no such concerns.
1 Go to commentsGreat read. I wish you had done this article on the ROAR.
2 Go to commentsThe current AB coaching team is basically the Crusaders so it smacks of wanting their familiar leaders around. This is not a good look for the future of the ABs or the younger players in Super working their way up the player ladder. Razor is touted as innovative, forward looking but his early moves look like insecurity and insular, provincial thinking. He is the AB's coach not the Golden Oldies.
10 Go to commentsSimple reason for wanting him back. Robertson wants him as captain. Otherwise he wouldn’t be bothering chasing him. Not enough reason to come back just to mentor.
10 Go to commentsI had not considered this topic like this at all, brilliant read. I had been looking at his record at the Waratahs and thought it odd the Crusaders appointed him, then couple that with all that experience and talent departing and boom. They’ve got some great talent developing though, and in all honesty I don’t think anyone would be over confident taking them on in a playoff match, no matter how poor the first half of their season was. I think they can pull a game out of their ass when it counts.
2 Go to commentsNot a bad list but not Porecki and not Donaldson. Not because they are Tahs, or Ex Tahs, they are just not good enough. Edmed should be ahead. Far more potential. Wilson should be 8 and Valentini 6. Wilson needs to be told by his father and his coach, stop bloody running in to brick wall defence. You’re not playing under the genius Thorn any more. He’s a fantastic angle runner. The young new 8 from the Brumbies looks really good too. The Lonegrans are just too small for international rugby as is Paisami, as is Hamish Stewart at 12. Both great at Super Rugby level. Stewart could have been a great 10 if not for Brad Thorn. Uru should be there and so should Tupou. Tupou just needs good Australian coaching which he hasn’t been getting. I don’t think Schmidt will excite him.
2 Go to commentsIf he wants to come back then he should. He will be a major asset to the younger locks and could easily be played as an impact player off the bench coming on in the last 30. He is fit, strong and capable and has all the experience to make up for any loss in physical prowess. He could also be brought back with a view to coaching within the structures one day. Duane Vermeulen played until he was 37 or 38. He is now a roaming coach within the South African coaching structures. He was valuable in the last world cup and has been a major influence on Jasper Wiese and other young players which has helped and accelerated their development and growth. Whitelock could do the exact same thing for NZ
10 Go to commentsBrett Excellent words… finally someone (other than DC) has noted that Hanigan is very hard and very good at doing what Backrow should do… his performance via the Drua sauna was quite daunting for those on the other side… very high tackle count… carries with good end result… constant threat to make a good 20-25 meters with those long legs… providing his mass effectively to crunching the Drua pack… Finally he is returning to quality form… way to much injury time over the last 2 years… smart-strong-competent in his skills… caught every lineout throw aimed at him and delivered clean pass to whoever was down below… and he worked hard for the whole 80 minutes… Ned has to be in the top 5 for backrow honors… He knows what is required as he has been there before…
20 Go to commentsI think Sam Whitelock should not touch a return with a bargepole. He went out on a high, playing in the RWC Final. He would be coming back into a team that will be weaker than last years, and might even be struggling to win games, especially against the Boks. Stay in France, enjoy another year with Pau, playing alongside his brother.
10 Go to commentsRyan Coxon has been very impressive considering he was signed by WF as injury cover whilst Uru has been a standout for QR, surprised neither of those mentioned
2 Go to commentsIt’s the massive value he brings with regard team culture/values, preparation, etc. Can’t buy that. I’m hoping to see the young locks get their chance in the big games though.
10 Go to commentsAll good, Gregor, except that you neglected to mention Sam Darry amongst that talented pool of locks. In fact, given Hannah’s inexperience and the fact that Holland won’t be eligible until next year, Lord and Darry might be the frontrunners this year, to join Barrett, Tuipoluto, Va’ii and possibly Whitelock. In fact there might be room for all of them if Barrett played 6 (like Ollie Chessum).
10 Go to commentsHis value is stabilizing the ship 20 - 40 minutes out from the final whistle plus his valuable experience to the underlings coming through.
10 Go to commentsWhat is criminal is she acts like it's no problem her actions have have cause the Italian player to lose her playing career, lose salary, if she did this in day to day life she would be in jail, she is a complete thug!!!
3 Go to commentsCorrect me if i’m wrong but the sadas have to win all games running into the finals yeh nah?
1 Go to commentsDon’t like Diamond but the maul is a joke, the sight of a choke tackle creating a maul then players in offside positions flopping on it killing the ball but then getting the put in? Banal.
3 Go to commentsHopefully Tabai Matson returns to Crusaders as head coach next season.
1 Go to commentsstorm in a teacup really. Penalty only so play on as the try was scored. Now the real question is: why was Maitland allowed to pass the ball off the floor? That is illegal but refs never pick it up.
1 Go to commentsWhen Beauden Barrett signed his contract before the 2023 RWC to play in Japan in 2024, it was NOT part of a sabbatical agreed to with NZRU prior to his signing, as was Ardie Savea and Sam Cane. Barrett changed his mind after the fact and negotiated his return to NZ Rugby and he was given permission to be eligible for All Black selection straight away once he signed a new contract to return to the Blues in 2025. Therefore, why would anyone argue against Whitelock returning to the All Blacks straight away after his season is France is finished if he signs a new contract with NZRU which includes a Super Rugby contract in 2025? If Barrett can, Whitelock should be allowed too.
10 Go to commentsThe All Blacks will select 5 locks this season. Scott Robertson will most likely want to select 2 veteran locks who can start right away in 2024 and 3 young promising locks who he would like to be pushing hard for selection in the starting XV in two years time- 2026. Scott Barrett is a world class lock. Who would you rather start beside him this season against England, South Africa, Ireland, and France- Sam Whitelock or Patrick Tuipulotu? I would choose Whitelock over Tuipulotu all day, every day.
10 Go to comments