The hottest team in the Prem right now are Northampton Saints. Phil Dowson’s men are sitting pretty at the top of the table after nine rounds of play with 38 points, two ahead of reigning champions Bath in second spot. The rivalry between the two clubs does not stop at the domestic league, it extends to the jostling for places in Steve Borthwick’s England squad at the Six Nations.
For every Guy Pepper there is a Henry Pollock, for every Ben Spencer an Alex Mitchell. The friction could become especially acute in the centres, where Rec men Max Ojomoh and Ollie Lawrence will be scrapping tooth and nail with Fraser Dingwall and Tommy Freeman for minutes.
It should come as far less of a surprise to see Freeman’s name bracketed with that trio – plus Exter’s 74-cap veteran Henry Slade – in Borthwick’s squad after Northampton’s thumping 41-21 victory at the Rec just after Christmas. The champions played their first teamers and the Midlanders arrived 10 cards short of a full hand, but they still came away with a resounding win, scoring six tries to three in the process.
Freeman grabbed a hat-trick and that outcome will have moved him significantly closer to England selection at outside centre for the first-round game against Wales. Freeman has now started three of his past four games for club and country in that position and the prospect of a more permanent shift to number 13 is becoming increasingly attractive.
As the man himself declared: “There’s a bit more of a focus on 13 [in 2026]. It’s definitely an option, as it was last year, but the onus is on me to get some more training minutes in there. If I can do that and be trusted in the midfield then I’ll go for it.
“England and Saints are pretty aligned and they’ll give each other lots of feedback. Saints have me signed as a wing and if they want me to play there then I’ll play there – it’s as simple as that. Last year I think they probably would have liked to have had me in the middle a bit more but because of injuries I was on the wing.
“For now, I’m a wing and a 13 but then as we get on [more] 13 who can go on the wing. As you get a bit older and your legs get a bit slower, I’ll probably have to come in one [spot]. Having different strings to your bow does help but I just want to be on the pitch, representing the country, as much as possible.”
George Hendy, a team-mate of Freeman’s in the Franklin’s Gardens back three and a man with Red Rose aspirations of his own, is understandably eager to see the 2025 Lions’ Test starter make the move inside.
“I’d definitely say he’s capable after watching what he did for the majority of last season at 13 for us. I think he’s got the skill-set and the frame for it… The more games you play, the more you pick up and the better you get, so if England are looking at him as a 13 option, he is probably going to have to start putting in some shifts at 13 in a Saints shirt but I think he can do it.”
Hendy’s comment is significant. The 6ft 3 ins, 95kg wing/full-back is one of many talented tall redwoods in the Prem, part of a plethora of English riches in the back three. Whether you look towards Hendy and Freeman at Northampton, Tom Roebuck at Sale, Noah Caluori at Saracens or Bath’s own Will Muir, all are 6’3 or more and well-suited to the aerial acrobatics demanded by the modern kick-chase, so it makes sense to shift at least one of them inside to create room for the others to grow, and Freeman is likeliest lad of the lot to make the move.
Freeman could be the logical beneficiary at outside centre whether Borthwick goes with George Ford or Fin Smith as his starting 10. If he picks Ford for his pinpoint kicking, there could be at least three big athletes chasing the ball in Freeman, Roebuck and Freddie Steward. If he veers towardsSmith and the running game, there is every chance of club cohesion going national with an ‘All Saints’ midfield of Fraser Dingwall and Freeman in the centres serviced by Alex Mitchell at scrum-half.
The last possibility suggests Freeman may well find himself in competition for the 13 jersey with Lawrence rather than picked alongside the Bath man. Bath and Northampton prefer to complement the power of that pair with a ball player at 12, in the shape of either Ojomoh or Cameron Redpath at the Rec, and Dingwall or Rory Hutchinson at Franklin’s Gardens.
There is a sense of complementary functions with one of Slade, Dingwall or Ojomoh providing the bullets [more passes than runs] and either Lawrence or Freeman to fire them, each with more than twice the number of runs made to every pass they deliver. Neither Dingwall nor Ojomoh has the quality of kicking game to match Slade and that element will count in the Chief’s favour.
The Bath-Northampton game at the Rec may crucially have moved Freeman ahead of Lawrence in the pecking order judged purely on his effectiveness as a ball runner.
Freeman has enjoyed a sensational attacking start to his career in midfield, scoring four tries against Bath and Harlequins in two games where Saints racked up over 100 points, home and away. Lawrence has recently returned from injury and Atkinson has had little chance to showcase his talent at Kingsholm with the ailing Cherry and Whites. If you want a power runner in your midfield, it is hard indeed to look past the Northampton man. Freeman may be riding the zeitgeist all the way into the England midfield in 2026.
Twelve and 13 are fluid rather than fixed numbers in the modern game, and coaches will cheerfully swap players around to achieve the impacts they want. Lee Blackett and the England brains trust switched Lawrence and Dingwall over to score the decisive try of the game against the All Blacks in November.
— William Bishop (@RPvids1994) January 5, 2026
The threat of Lawrence pulls the attention of Beauden Barrett and Quinn Tupaea in midfield and Billy Proctor outside them is caught in no man’s land when the Northampton man receives a short pass from his Bath brother-in-arms.
Freeman was also nominally wearing the 13 jersey for Saints when he ran straight through the tail end of the Bath lineout defence to score in only the third minute.
— William Bishop (@RPvids1994) January 5, 2026
The Northampton 10 and 12 are out of the play as Freeman picks the perfect ‘unders’ line between two Bath front-rowers, hooker Tom Dunn and prop Beno Obano. Freeman’s ability to see the right running line well before the opportunity materialises is as uncanny as it is world-class and it is the hallmark of a great centre.
— William Bishop (@RPvids1994) January 5, 2026
Freeman sees instantly his Bath opposite number Lawrence is taking away the width of the field and ‘shading’ him towards the inside, so he makes necessity the mother of invention with a bust straight up the middle of the park.
His ability to spot opportunities before they have begun to unfold was also in evidence in Saturday’s thrashing of Quins.
— William Bishop (@RPvids1994) January 5, 2026
Mitchell is running in ever-decreasing circles but Freeman picks up on the possibilities in support before anyone else – even before the Saints’ scrum-half has thought of them himself. That is a reading of the game well beyond the astute, it is positively prophetic.
Bath and Northampton are two best sides in the Prem, they are the champions of the past two years and sit at number one and two in the table. Many of their players will rightly be contesting England spots, and the rivalry will be nowhere hotter than in the centres.
The potential of Freeman as an international number 13 is the most intriguing option of all, and arguably the choice with the highest ceiling for England’s 2027 World Cup campaign.
Freeman fits the bill whether Borthwick decides to go to the skies with Ford at 10, or keep the ball at sea level with Smith. Wherever England supporters light their votive candles, they should not be surprised if it is All Saints Day for the Red Rose backline.
You should try it for size Ed. Learning I mean. It’s lot more interesting than just scoffing at others.🤣
If there is a driver on the forums which follows my articles, it is curiosity.
Curiosity about the game and the people in it and the people who watch it. The articles are written in that spirit too.
They don’t suit ppl who have already made their minds up about everything and know they’re right.
But I digress. What was your midfield again?
Fantastic that you learned, better late than never as they say!
As for England, no one asked you to drop the full kimono, we all know you like to believe you’ve got the largest bsd in town!! All I asked was who would be your centre pair and already given you mine…
That’s where I learned how to open up a discussion - by watching him with Zelensky in the WH, then doing the opposite!
The last piece I wrote had almost 900 replies, so really I try to limit my involvements more now. Esp long convos with just one other poster
Re England I think they will want to run the same 10, 12 and 13 thru from rd 1 v Wales to rd 3 v Ireland. Then maybe experiment v Italy in round 4.
We could see an all-Saints midfield with Fin at 10, or Ford plus Dingwall/Lawrence or Lawrence/Slade depending on Lawrence’s fitness.
If Freeman survives intact vs UBB today, first up I’d be tempted to go with that all Nthmpton midfield plus Mitch at 9 and Furbank at 15 if fit. The ABs set about a quarter of a million rucks v Wales and Wales never looked like getting the ball off them. But I think SB will stick with Ford.
Give Atkinson a start v Italy.
Now show me yours.
So that’s where you learned to dodge the questions, makes sense now!
Anyway, who would you start in the centres vs wales if FD wasn’t available?
And what will your forfeit be when SA is slated to start? We can always open that one up to the public vote ofc…😂
I think we alreaady have JD Vance roaming these very forums…🤣
You should be running press comms for Trump…!!! 😂
In fact IB did have social skills - he could keep the verbal fencing going and he laced it all with some humour. Otherwise your repartee with him would not have been so entertaining…
Let’s put it this way. He was never ‘Tone Deaf’ and he did respond to your comments with some inventiveness!
“there could be at least three big athletes chasing the ball in Freeman, Roebuck and Freddie Steward”
Yes. And the team would have eff all pace. Great for kick tennis and/or playing like Ireland (which England aren't equipped to do). Not so good for a team that wants to play to space…
“your complete absence of social skills surpasses that of any other poster I’ve ever come across”
You’ve clearly forgotten already the spectacular narratives spun by diddly boy ike and his dual personalities…😂
Is it worse to point out that someone is condescending and smug than to accuse them of having a “complete absence of social skills”? Really not sure how one is personal abuse and the other isn’t.
We can both criticise each other’s attitudes; thinking you can - but that when I do it is abusive - is frankly very very smug.
This next DoR appointment for Quins is critical - they have lost a bit of identity and standards with the recent coaching changes.
I actually think they need someone who understands the clubs DNA but can also re-set the standards and expectations at the club.
I think they need someone like Conor O’Shea to return, with a stronger forwards coach. Whilst the forwards have been in decline for the last 3 seasons, it’s remarkable how quickly they dropped off once Flannery left.
A ticket like Conor O’Shea with Nick Easter as forwards coach would actually be an interesting ticket for Quins. They would certainly command that dressing room on Day 1 and set the standards that have been lost over the last few years.
I’d agree with that - Marcus got all the headlines at that stage but I actually think people missed quite how much Andre was part of that, as once he left, things changed pretty quickly.
Saints are playing beautiful rugby this season. Talented players, of course, but it’s impossible to think they just landed a generational group of 7/8 players. They have two guys in every position, bar 10, who fit in perfectly. Easier to believe the coaching is making good players better.
Dowson and Vesty need to be considered for higher honours.
I’ve navigated this conversation without abusing you personally.
‘Condescending, smug, obtuse, lazy and incoherent’ are just a selection of your adjectives on this forum. On a previous thread you called me a liar.
I don’t care whether you agree with my rugby opinions, but your attitude stinks.
Hip hip hooray!
new year, new me!
I’d argue that Moodie is more suited to 13 than wing.
This is rich coming from you, Finn. Ye who routinely calls people idiots around here.
In fairness Ed, fans have strange misguided views in rugby and when you take a step back, we are totally illogical most of the time. 🤣🤣🤣
1) We actually expect our team should be in a position to win every game, even though deep down we know a good team wins 60% of the time, a top team wins in the 70’s, an exceptional team is in the 80’s and a once in a generational team is in the 90’s . . . . yet we expect to win every game. 🤣🤣🤣
2) Fans expect International Head Coaches to get everything right, even though none ever have. Most International squads use 75-100 players per cycle for squads of 36 (so we actually have a +50% failure rate at selection) and we probably lose 25% to Father time every 4 years. . . . . Yet we expect every 36 to be perfect and every 23. 🤣🤣🤣
3) Rugby has never been a game of perfect, far from it but at the end of the day it’s supposed to be fun and whilst we wont always agree with every point, it’s a game we love and we can always learn.
If anything, I would really love for the coaches to have better communication and engagement with the fans, to explain squad selections, player pathways, what they are looking for from players that don’t get picked - the more fans understand those things the better they will understand the Head Coaches . . . . but we have never been very good about that until you have a 1 to 1 conversation with a top level DoR and you realise how advance their knowledge and decision making is to what we realise.
At the end of the day, we just need to remember it’s a bit of fun and we should enjoy it. That’s all we can ask for and pick up some extra knowledge and ideas along the way.
Given that he’s just told me that my “complete absence of social skills surpasses that of any other poster I’ve ever come across” I doubt a reply will be forthcoming!
Pot; kettle.
I’ve been writing this kind article for about 13 years now, in both hemispheres, replying to posts which would now number in the millions.
I have to say your complete absence of social skills surpasses that of any other poster I’ve ever come across.
Learn how to talk to other people, please.
Quite breathtaking. The lowest threshold for disagreement I’ve ever encountered🤣🤣
Thanks for the references, will be interested to see how nb replies!
Look at the comments on his article “have England suddenly become a lucky team?”.
He told me:
“[England's defence] looks uncoordinated in the areas described and it stops England playing a more orthodox back row.”
…
“I understand why you’re ‘wedded to the plan that doesn’t work’ and want Marcus OUT!”
…
“As the article indicates, [box-kicking] doesn’t work - neither v Scotland nor v France. Any kind of data you want to extrapolate will show you, not just the stats I’ve included here. But hey, keep believing😄”
…
“It’s the Leicester influence that Borthers has never truly shrugged off. Kick 35+ times per game, no more than two phases in your own half etc. I just don’t feel it’s well adapted to the ppl England has available.”
…
In reply to someone arguing England's kicking strategy (which NB was very explicitly against) was a result of lack of metres gained by the forwards, NB agreed, saying “its part and parcel of three sevens theory”
The article “should tom Willis start for England in the six nations” was fairly balanced, but in the comments I was arguing that England should stick with Earl at 8, and NB was saying that this would prevent England from improving their defence. I’ll let you look up the specifics of the conversation if interested as it’s a shorter comments section.
I’ll also leave you to read the comments on “what's the future of rugby in 2025” if you’re interested, in part because it provides the best example of NB being obtuse and condescending when disagreed with. In that thread I say England should go with Ford or Fin at 10, to which NB has the counter suggestion of rejigging the rest of the team to get the best out of Marcus.
And ofc Quins used Andre’s booming left boot too, so that took even more pressure off Marcus.
I really believe there were a couple of season shwne Andre the Giant was the best and most influential player in the Prem, bar none!
I guess we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. His articles are good.
“I’m not sure why Borthwick trusted some young players and not others. It’s also interesting that we appeared to trust more forwards than backs and how quickly that has changed since last 6 N’s.”
I think the answer to the first part is (i) that different ppl judge young players differently and (ii) that he wanted to choose a core of young players to get to 10+ caps, rather than giving token minutes to everyone. With regards the second part, he replaced almost the entire backline after the RWC, which gave opportunities to a lot of younger players, but meant that the backs he assembled had had no time time together and were often pretty sloppy at executing the game plan. I think (i) he felt he needed to give the players he had picked time to get used to paying together, rather than constantly chopping ad changing, and (ii) he needed to retain at least a couple of experienced heads in there or risk losing even more than he did do.
“Wrong players - Cole, Davidson, Isiekwe, Roots, Dombrandt, (probably) Care (was short term at best), Randall & Spencer, probably should have been Fin Smith (after he won the Premiership), probably Murley, too many games of Marcus Smith (at 15) - they made quite a few but that has since improved.”
Ok thats very fair. Cole and Care probably felt necessary due to scrum issues and inexperience in the backline (winning games matters at least as much as developing players!) and I thought Murley deserved his chance, but you’re right about the others. Roots for me will always be the strangest selection, because at the time it made no sense to select him, but he played really well only to get dropped anyway. Makes you wonder what Borthwick was trying to achieve. And it is strange, given Borthwick was a lock, how little willingness he’s shown to develop young locks. Instead of Isiekwe and Ewels I'd like to see Lockett and Bamber given some game time.
“we probably should have done more with Oghre/Blamire, Fasogbon, Coles, Quirke, F Smith, Ojomoh, Roebuck, Hendy”
To be fair, I don’t think Fasogbon became viable until quite recently, and I don’t fully get the hype around Blamire, but i agree when it comes to Oghre and Ojomoh. The problem is, its easy to say in hindsight that Roebuck needed to get picked sooner, but did we know back then that he was definitely a better prospect than Sleightholme? It’s a similar issue with Quirke now - I understand where you're coming from but I think JvP and McParland are the better prospects, and Borthwick can’t give extended game time to all 3 of them. He’s going to have to make a choice, and it could be the wrong one!
“ENG have a great depth to their squad but they are fairly light on caps and we still have a bit of work to finalise the back line.”
I think this is true, but largely a consequence of the age profile. SA have loads of caps in their squad, but their players are all in their 30s! Borthwick has done a great job of developing the experience of younger players, but with a squad that skews younger it just isn’t possible to compete with SA in terms of numbers of caps. That will come with time; have faith!
“we are moving forward after some difficult years and I have more confidence in Lee Blackett running the attack”
Yeah he’s a great coach, but I think the most exciting thing for me is how all the coaches seem to be synergising. Blackett is a great attack coach, but so is Wigglesworth, whose official brief is defence! Meanwhile the best defence coaches in the team are McGuigan and Sinfield, who coach the contact area and skills. The conversations between coaches must be so generative; and they are also all pretty young so will develop together.
OK, please consider the impact on conversations of taking such a condescending tone when making a point you don’t believe.
It’s interesting that he was given a CC, and then dropped for 3 of the 4 autumn games. The CC might imply that he was thought of as likely to be involved, but there is additional evidence is now available that could prompt a reassessment.
I agree PM and I’ve stated previously that nb’s engagement is helpful, insightful and, for the most part, appreciated. As you can see for yourself though, not everyone else’s experience is quite as smooth as yours but that can produce valuable learning too and I guess at the end of the day, nobody’s perfect!
That’s fair comment but there’s also a tiny minority of times when it’s you that clearly needs to be proved right at all costs!
Ps the current topic under discussion re FD/SA is a classic example, have you noticed that absolutely no one else has fallen in behind your position on this?
Pps did you genuinely tell@fl that contestable kicks were a losing strategy for England; that Marcus Smith should continue being picked at 10; and that England needed to start selecting a ball carrying number 8 instead of Ben Earl??? If you did then that’s an unholy trinity if ever I saw one!!!😂
Jeez you just don’t get it do you? Those are YOUR words, NOT mine!
As for any condemnation, that comes from interpreting the stats. And since when did a player having stats for the first half of this season that puts him at the lower end of an elite group of England contenders, make him a “no-hoper”???
Read the comments on here again but properly this time, most agree that FD brings his own qualities to the game and that there’s an element of them that are almost intangible. In a case like that selection hinges on the extent to which the coach is genuinely in the players corner and it’s already clear that SB isn’t 100% sold, at least not to the extent that FD is nailed on at centre for England!
Andre always took two players to bring him down, so his sheer presence narrowed the two centres in (knowing they would both be needed), which ultimately bought Marcus an extra 2ft of space (which is all he needs) and it also created a touch more space for his 13.
Once he left - defence started to get the better of Quins and Marcus overplayed his strength with less space, which made him more predictable.
Whoever let Andre go, that was a major mistake but whilst he was acknowledged in the Premiership at the time, I actually think we only realised his true game changing value once he left.
Thanks P.
I think you’ve hit the right wavelength there. The enjoyment of these forums for me lies in the sharing of knowledge and experience with ppl from diff backgrounds, and having some fun while doing it…
When it becomes a slog to get past the tiny minority of posters who only want to inflame a sore spot or need to be proved right at all costs, it’s no longer fun! 😁
Okay not indispensable, but the marker of CC shows the coaches think he is more likely to be involved than not.
You just condemned Dingwall as a no-hoper.
And funny/strange that Marcus only seems to get mentioned in dispatches as a FB now! Chris Robshaw was lamenting the departure of Andre Esterhuizen from Quins as the main reason the other day, and he was right. Esterhuizen lent Marcus a huge amount of confidence with a mountain beside him.
That’s not my experience with NB. I think we are pretty lucky that he spends the time to engage with us and discuss, he’s probably done over 100 replies on this thread alone and is trying to expand people’s thoughts and understanding - we are very lucky that he does that and its helped improve my knowledge as a result.
I’m not sure why Borthwick trusted some young players and not others. It’s also interesting that we appeared to trust more forwards than backs and how quickly that has changed since last 6 N’s. I don’t have the answers but it is a little strange how we trust Baxter, Dan, Martin, Chessum, CC-S, Pepper & Pollock and we were much slower in the back line . . . . But they finally appear to be doing it now.
Wrong players - Cole, Davidson, Isiekwe, Roots, Dombrandt, (probably) Care (was short term at best), Randall & Spencer, probably should have been Fin Smith (after he won the Premiership), probably Murley, too many games of Marcus Smith (at 15) - they made quite a few but that has since improved.
It’s getting better but we probably should have done more with Oghre/Blamire, Fasogbon, Coles, Quirke, F Smith, Ojomoh, Roebuck, Hendy - we’ve been a bit slow with them when you look at their cap experience to date. We’ve known all these players were coming through during SB’s entire tenure but were very slow to bring them into the matchday 23’s.
ENG have a great depth to their squad but they are fairly light on caps and we still have a bit of work to finalise the back line.
It’s a longer conversations than a post but we are moving forward after some difficult years and I have more confidence in Lee Blackett running the attack. Let’s hope they continue to build.
“In fairness FL, I think NB and myself discuss and bounce ideas and see the pro & con’s in them, which is why we stretch ideas and discussions. . . . but that’s the fun of learning on this forum and sharing ideas, whilst also learning a wider view and perspective.”
That hasn’t been my experience of talking to NB, to be quite honest, and I know others feel the same. He’s very smug, very condescending, and rarely reads my comments in order to find out whether he might learn anything from them or not!
“I think you find it difficult to consider wider ideas once you have your preference - that probably explains your frustration with us.”
Its interesting to hear you say that, but I’m not really sure where that’s coming from. Do you have specific examples? My new years resolution was to be less cantakerous on the comments sections here, and I’ve done a good job so far - apart from with NB. Its so hard to speak to someone who has so little respect for anyone who disagrees with him.
“Let me just ask - Given how long Fin Smith, Ojomoh, Dingwall have been in camps (that started during Eddie Jones tenure), they were pretty much ignored by Steve Borthwick but he also had a very strong Leicester/Sarries bias with his coaching group at the start, which created part of this.”
I guess that’s true (although I don’t think for Dingwall. He was given a few starts in 2024 and didn’t look ready for test rugby), but there are so many counter examples I could give as well. Would other coaches have given so many opportunities so early on to George Martin, Cunningham-South, Feyi-Waboso, Pollock, Pepper, Dan, etc. etc.?
“There is probably a case to argue ENG had a poor integration of the pathway programmes and Borthwick wasted too many caps on the wrong players and is basically where he did a poor job after RWC 2023 and we lost the best part of 2 years picking the wrong players.”
Which wrong players? Apart from Roots, Marler, Care, & Cole, everyone who started a game in the 2024 6N is still in the frame now. After the 2023 RWC he was left with a really young and inexperienced team, and while it took much longer than he would have hoped to get them winning, they’re now looking really cohesive.
“I think NZ are the masters of building experience over the years. They usually build a broader base of 20-30 cap players and France have been building depth for the last 6 years which is why they have a wider squad with quite a few number of caps and SA have unbelievable depth . . . Which is why I said I thought NZ, SA & FRA are ahead of us (which they probably are).”
Well, England have a broader base of 20-30 cap players than NZ do. I understand the stereotype that NZ, SA, & FRA have better depth than England do, but I just struggle to see how that corresponds to reality?
“Your number of caps looks a good statistic but why are Freddie Steward (41) , Ollie Chessum (30), JvP (21), CC-S (20) Theo Dan (20) half of that total across 5 players under 25 - not exactly depth FL.”
This is a very fair point, but I think England have still brought through a really broad base of young talent. Comparing the four teams in terms of how many u25s in their squads on 20+ caps, ENG have 5; NZ 3; FRA 1; SA 1. Looking at u23s on 10+ caps ENG have 5; FRA 4; NZ 2; SA 2. So that’s pretty decent depth!
“Ask yourself why have Fin Smith, Max Ojomoh, Dingwall etc have so few caps given they have been in most of those squads at similar ages?? Is giving players 1 or 2 caps in disjointed teams really testing them? probably not!! Do we need to get better at identifying players and building their experience within cycles - definately.”
Well, Fin Smith has 13 caps and Fraser Dingwall has 7. I don’t think its fair to say that Borthwick has just been giving young players “1 or 2 caps in disjointed teams” when he’s done better than Rassie, Galthié, and Robertson at getting young players to 10 or 20+ caps.
“Do we need to get better at identifying players and building their experience within cycles - definately.”
There’s always room for improvement, but I actually think this is the main thing that Borthwick is really good at. I’ve presented quite a lot of stats that I think back up what I’m saying and show how well Borthwick has developed his young talents, but ultimately the proof will be in the pudding. I think England are going to go to 2027 with one of the deepest and most experienced squads, built around a core of young players developed by Borthwick.
Very true!
I think he is due back in these Investec rounds but SCO have some decent centres and that back line is always a bit of a handful.
Personally, I would prefer if ENG picked their pairing and played all tournament. We need to get a settled side. I think we are there in the forwards and are still tinkering in the back line.
The 36 will give us better insight but the 23 will be very telling this 6N’s.
Really??? 🤣🤣🤣
In fairness FL, I think NB and myself discuss and bounce ideas and see the pro & con’s in them, which is why we stretch ideas and discussions. . . . but that’s the fun of learning on this forum and sharing ideas, whilst also learning a wider view and perspective.
I think you find it difficult to consider wider ideas once you have your preference - that probably explains your frustration with us.
Let me just ask - Given how long Fin Smith, Ojomoh, Dingwall have been in camps (that started during Eddie Jones tenure), they were pretty much ignored by Steve Borthwick but he also had a very strong Leicester/Sarries bias with his coaching group at the start, which created part of this.
There is probably a case to argue ENG had a poor integration of the pathway programmes and Borthwick wasted too many caps on the wrong players and is basically where he did a poor job after RWC 2023 and we lost the best part of 2 years picking the wrong players.
I think NZ are the masters of building experience over the years. They usually build a broader base of 20-30 cap players and France have been building depth for the last 6 years which is why they have a wider squad with quite a few number of caps and SA have unbelievable depth . . . Which is why I said I thought NZ, SA & FRA are ahead of us (which they probably are).
Your number of caps looks a good statistic but why are Freddie Steward (41) , Ollie Chessum (30), JvP (21), CC-S (20) Theo Dan (20) half of that total across 5 players under 25 - not exactly depth FL. Ask yourself why have Fin Smith, Max Ojomoh, Dingwall etc have so few caps given they have been in most of those squads at similar ages??
Is giving players 1 or 2 caps in disjointed teams really testing them? probably not!! Do we need to get better at identifying players and building their experience within cycles - definately.
Hopefully this is specific enough for an item we all know has been an issue and hopefully we will avoid repeating in the future. 🤞
Yeah it would me too but at the end of the day we’re all just giving opinions, only the Eng coaches know for sure where they’re at.
Possibly but that would depend, at least to an extent, on how well SA and OL gel vs Wales. And isn’t Huw Jones still out, not sure he’s played since the Lions. You need to try players/combos with the games available, can’t have your cake and eat it!
that would surprise me! To be fair the first game is against Wales, so we might see a rotated team.
I think though, its between Atkinson & Ojomoh to start at 12 and Lawrence & Freeman to start at 13. If there’s a major injury crisis then Dingwall & Slade will provide very able backup, but otherwise I’d be shocked if either gets a look in.
Probably Ed . . . He’s like an ultimate rugby fan underneath it all.
I’m starting to see why you like NB so much - you both couldn’t be harder to pin down on a specific opinion!
Do you think “we probably should have tested more of the youngsters” or do you think “we have the time to test them and find all the combinations”?
“other teams certainly seem to have tested their wider squad depth more than we have (SA, FRA, NZ etc).”
I don’t think this is true at all tbh. SA have tested their squad depth a lot, but this is a necessity, given that so many of their key players are approaching the end of their careers. They need depth, because their first time might age out before 2027! France have used a huge number of players, but haven’t given many players significant time in the saddle. We might look at how many players with 10+ caps were in each nation’s autumn squad: ENG 27; SA 27; NZ 25; FRA 22. For 20+ caps its SA 24; ENG 19; NZ 18; FRA 16. Not bad for Borthwick! Or if you’re concerned about bringing through young talent we could look at how many caps had been given to players (in the autumn squads) aged 25 and under: ENG 219; NZ 176; FRA 102; SA 58. For players aged 23 and under its ENG 93; FRA 78; SA 49; NZ 43. Looking really really good for England!
I would hope we play the same centres vs WAL & SCO - you really don’t want to go up against that SCO back line trying to play a new centre partnership.
SCO are probably the best centre partnership in the 6N.
Yeah maybe…but imagine if FD starts first up at 12, humble pie all round!!! 😂
I wonder if JvG subscribes to RP…😂
Jesus Christ. No integrity at all, but at least we got there in the end.
Wow. That’s honestly incredible.
Blackett had to put a mixture of experience in ARG, so went Ford/Atkinson/Slade. We’ve then stuck with Ford/Dingwall/Lawrence in the AI’s, so it has been a mixture of experience + youth (but not so much youth).
If I am honest, I think we know what George Ford’s, Henry Slade & Elliott Daly’s strengths are and we probably should have tested more of the youngsters - Quirke, F Smith, Atkinson, Ojomo, Hendy etc.
We are quickly running out of games and whilst Fin Smith had a decent run last year, we would probably benefit from testing players like AOF, Fasogbon, Atkinson, Ojomo, Hendy, Caluori etc . . . . BUT I don’t think we have the time to test them and find all the combinations.
We are where we are but other teams certainly seem to have tested their wider squad depth more than we have (SA, FRA, NZ etc).
They have apparently offered Dan Du Preez (Sale) a deal for next year, which suggests Alfie or Coetzee will be leaving 9or both), which would then leave Du Preez, Arthur Green & Miles Reid as cover for 8 next season.
I think Du Toit & Van Wyk will be leaving at the end of the year (props), so they probably have enough cover at THP - Stuart, Sela & Griffin but they do look light at LHP, so I think they will have a decent LHP and if Alfie has ENG ambitions, that might be the position where he can make it.
It’s very left field and based on nothing but that’s the sort of conversion that would really add to ENG’s front row options.
Tbf he HAS eventually said “I’m sure SA wil be given a shot, prob during the 6N”.
It’s only taken some 250+ comments tho…😂
Quite an honours list then! 😂
6N before last he told me I was a clown for suggesting Galthie had a record of being unpopular among his club squads. When I proved the case, he then wrote his next piece on it, citing the same source, without even blinking
Last year he told me that contestable kicks were a losing strategy for England; that Marcus Smith should continue being picked at 10; and that England needed to start selecting a ball carrying number 8 instead of Ben Earl!
He’s always going to be ahead on stats, because he gets around the field so much more than everyone else!
I guess we’ll see whether Borthwick prefers a workhorse or an x-factor player. I know what I expect the answer to be!
Dunno but they’d need some extra budgie smugglers that’s for sure! 😂
Do you reckon that could be a serious move? I’d have expected them to go out and buy someone as TdT must be on a decent wedge?
The convo would proceed with each of us responding to the points each other made. Instead it centres around your utter bafflement that I would have an opinion that you hadn’t thought of, and you wacking out a series of lazy and incoherent replies that don’t make it clear what you even believe!
“All those factors need to be considered alongside, or before the selection of Seb Atkinson a 12.”
Why before? Your article doesn’t consider Atkinson at all.
Bath have great depth at hooker with Tuipulotu coming through the ranks (who is Alfie mark 2 - that wants to play hooker).
We are thin at loosehead next season. Obano is the starter but Du Toit also covered the 2nd choice loosehead role (when Stuart was fit), who is leaving Bath at the end of the year, then we have Van Wyk who is coming to the end of his days and will need to sign a loosehead to replace what Du Toit covered.
LHP would allow Alfie to do all the things he is good at, with an x-factor carrying capability compared to the others. Could you imagine ENG with Genge & Barbeary being LHP carriers for 80 mins? That would take some beating.
“Some of this is related to Lee Blackett mixing a few things up - in reality we know what we are going to get from George Ford, Henry Slade, Elliott Daly etc (they have enough caps to prove themselves) what I don’t understand is why we are not giving more of an opportunity to the lesser capped players”
I’m a bit confused by this. Seems like you’re saying Blackett rotated out the more capped players, then you say that he didn’t rotate in lesser capped players - aren’t these mutually exclusive?
“That would be my only criticism with selection at the moment, we have missed the opportunity to test players/combinations and then look like we shut the door without giving them a chance.”
You can never give literally every player an extended run of tests. I’ll go through the guys you mentioned in order:
Fasogbon - a year ago, England had 0 top class tightheads, now Stuart and Heyes are both clearly in that category. Its hard to really fault what Borthwick & Harrison have done here - particularly now that AOF has 6 caps at just 21 years old. The door definitely isn’t shut on Fasogbon, but it just didn’t make sense to speedrun his development ahead of the other three.
Hill - England have given a lot of flankers a lot of opportunities this year. Maybe you would have dropped Pepper (or Underhill?) to give Hill a chance, but that feels a bit pedantic! England really struggled in 2024 due to lack of experience in the team, so removing someone like Underhill to build a backrow around Hill, Pollock, Pepper, etc. would just seem like a recipe for extending that season’s chaos.
Quirke - its tricky, because there are so many English scrumhalves who probably deserve a test opportunity. At the start of the season I thought Borthwick should go all in on developing Will Porter, but that was probably a mistake. Now I’m hoping the big man will put all his eggs in the Archie McParland basket. Realistically if Mitchell, JvP, & Spencer go to the world cup, I don’t think we can really complain, and they will all need game time for that to be viable.
Fin Smith - he got quite a few starts this year and it went great! not sure what your gripe is?
Ojomoh - did great when given the chance. I’d probably have given him gametime a bit earlier than Borthwick did, but from the summer onwards Borthwick’s looked at a lot of different centre combinations, all of which went well, so again not sure what the issue is.
Hendy - who would you have dropped to give Hendy a shot?
Not sure I can see it happening anytime soon but 2 might not seem quite as outrageous as 1. What are the bath stocks like in these spots?
Yeah I’m in that boat too but actually I quite enjoy it. His analysis is very good but occasionally when he’s wrong, he’s very wrong, and he will NEVER admit it! And it’s going to be so funny if or even when SA is named to start vs Wales…
Great lad, great close contact carrier (one of the best) - he’ll never make ENG at 8 but would have a chance at 1 or 2.
Maybe - to be fair NB rarely reads my comments before tell me I’m wrong, and its increasingly apparent he doesn’t even read his own comments.
But he did say that “[giving Slade a central contract is] a poor precedent to set… if they don’t intend to play him much” so he did presumably think that centrally contracted players will be picked in the 23 as much as possible.
NB: “If Slade is not indispensable, no point in awarding him one of only 25 CC’s is there? It’s very simple logic.”
Do you think Slade is indispensible?
Ok, let’s look at this in a slightly different way and see if that helps. In the event that FD isn’t available to start the first few 6N games (hypothetically speaking ofc), what centre combo would you go for v wales and at Murrayfield?
Just correcting your natural imbalance. It’s quite a job😁