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Rob Baxter: 'There's a few good years left in me yet hopefully'

Rob Baxter, the long-serving Exeter director of rugby, with his team in Toulouse last April (Photo by David Rogers/Getty Images)

Wednesday at Sandy Park provided an excellent insight into just how enthusiastic Rob Baxter continues to be at the Exeter helm. It would be understandable if the prospect of a 16th consecutive season as the Devon club’s director of rugby is wearying on the 53-year-old but there wasn’t a scintilla of staleness to be detected on a busy midweek day.

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With Chiefs’ open training session about to get underway at Sandy Park, Baxter was interviewed on the touchline and the fans assembled in the West Grandstand lapped up his every word. He watched some of the on-pitch activity that followed in preparation for Saturday’s pre-season doubleheader versus London Scottish and Cornish Pirates, then held a 40-minute round-table interview with the media that touched on a wide variety of topics.

Further business was on the agenda that afternoon, including a call with England boss Steve Borthwick on the new professional game board RFU/Premiership Rugby agreement that is set to be unveiled next month. In other words, it was all go and that continues to be exactly how Baxter very much likes it.

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‘This Energy Never Stops’ – Women’s Rugby World Cup 2025

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    ‘This Energy Never Stops’ – Women’s Rugby World Cup 2025

    Asked by RugbyPass if he had done anything in particular to stave off any staleness creeping in, he said: “Not particularly. At the end of the season, I take a couple of weeks, a proper break. But I’m very fortunate in my role here, my job here – I’m almost like an Exeter Chiefs fan.

    “Probably if I wasn’t working here, well I might not be one of the people watching today [Wednesday training] but I’d definitely be one of the people watching Saturday and I’d be sat with my mates who I used to play with and having a pint, sitting with my wife and we’d be enjoying the day.

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    “So I’m enthusiastic about seeing the team going well and the club go well as well. I’m fortunate in that way. I also think that sometimes we all need to stop and have a little bit of a word with ourselves. Like, there are 10 directors of rugby in the Premiership in this country, it’s a pretty privileged position to be in. If you get to the end of a season and go, ‘That was tough’ and you spend too long thinking like that, you need to have a bit of a word with yourself.

    “I do the same as everybody else. I watch other sports. I watch films for ideas. We have taken a few ideas for a couple of things this season that probably resonate with us around young teams and people who achieve things they maybe didn’t think they could achieve.

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    “All that kind of stuff is still very interesting to me and, as I say, working with younger guys definitely keeps you a bit more enthusiastic and a bit more keen because they are a lot easier to work with, a lot easier to manage so that does keep things fresh definitely.”

    It was 2009 when Baxter first assumed command, the club’s former lock graduating from his role as forwards coach to take over following the sacking of Pete Drewett. Life was certainly different, the then small business Chiefs being long-term Championship-level residents before a first-ever Premiership promotion was secured at the end of Baxter’s first season as boss.

    “The first year in the Premiership it was Ali (Hepher) and I. So I was like a DoR doing recruitment, salary cap and bits and pieces but I did the forwards and defence as well. Ali did backs, attack, Ricky (Pellow) did some skills, Robin Cowling came in part-time from Truro College and did a bit of scrum and that was it, that was our coaching staff.

    “Those first two, three years, there was a lot going on but in a different way. Now there is a lot going on because it is a much bigger club. We have just grown beyond all proportion. How we are and what we do and our staffing levels and all sorts, our academy. Everything has just taken off. It’s an ever-evolving role. I’m very lucky I work with very good people, so I’m still thinking there is a few good years left in me yet hopefully.”

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    Utmost in Baxter’s in-tray for 2024/25 following last season’s seventh-place league finish is adding a much-needed away-day layer of steel to his youthful squad. Double champions of England and Europe in 2019/20, trophies which proudly sit in their trophy cabinet along the corridor after you enter the ground floor main entrance at Sandy Park, last season was very much year one of a rebuild.

    Stars such as Luke Cowan-Dickie, the Simmonds brothers, Jack Nowell, Stuart Hogg and others had all departed, leaving Baxter to give youth its fling. There was a Champions Cup pool win snatched at Toulon in December but that campaign ended with a 64-26 quarter-final hammering at Toulouse.

    Their league effort also ended dismally, Leicester winning 40-22 at Welford Road. All six defeats on their nine-game Premiership road trip came bereft of a single losing/try bonus point and that lack of competitiveness was wounding as they finished six points behind the fourth-place Saracens in the play-off race.

    “I’m not going to say we were completely inexperienced but you guys know the players we lost and the amount of experience they had, and you know how many guys came in and had their first full season which was probably 80 per cent of our regular squad.

    “We were in with a fighting chance at the end of the Premiership and, to be fair, I’m wondering were we lucky in the fact that Sale went and won at Saracens. I’m wondering if our performance at Leicester, which was quite poor, would have hurt us a bit if qualification for the top four had been on it. For various reasons, we let ourselves down, and then the reality is we didn’t perform well away from home throughout the year. There is a reality there and I challenged the players at the end of the season…

    “We can’t turn around and say we were happy with our away performance where other than the games we won, we didn’t pick up any other points. That is a stat that you look at and go, ‘Really!’ Every away point we got were in games that we won, we didn’t get a losing bonus point or a try bonus point in any game that didn’t go our way.

    “You can clearly see we have got to establish something away from home that creates a bit of doggedness and a bit of harder to beat, collect points, however you want to look at it because, without doubt, you guys watched us in a 10-year period where we were getting to finals on a regular basis, it used to be rare that we didn’t pick up a point in every single game of the season.

    “That was one of the things, if you beat us we still picked up something. There was one season we picked up a point every game we played. That starts to make you a tough team to beat. I probably didn’t realise it until someone said it to me, in a lot of matches last season we had 80, 90 per cent of teams who went out at Welford Road, Gloucester, all these types of places with players who had never played there before. That’s an element we will hopefully learn from.

    “We have also taken the pressure off the players a little bit in that we are going to give them some very simple game plans and some very simple targets. We probably pushed the development of the team a little hard sometimes in that we wanted a bit much away from home which diluted the areas where we perhaps could have kept us in games for longer, created pressure.

    “The reality is we go to Northampton in our first away game (on September 28), they are the reigning champions and we have got to do something that makes them feel like in that last quarter they could lose the game. That’s how we have had success before.

    “The opposition starts to look around and get a bit edgy because you are within seven points and all of a sudden they make a few mistakes and you win the game. We have got to formulate our way back into that but I’m confident we can do that, I’m confident we have gained the experience in how we have to coach and in the players themselves.

    “We can’t not be excited about the players and the potential we have got, but at the same time there is going to be a little pressure to collect points. That’s the beauty of the Premiership, we all start on zero and if you are looking around after week three and you have only got two or three points it feels a very difficult competition.

    “I do feel we have got enough excitement within the squad, enough quality in the side to be very competitive in each game. We have just got to make sure we give the lads the opportunity to hang in there when it is tough and to really fly when it’s good. That is all I can really say.”

    What should assist this process is Baxter’s previous experience of nurturing a young team into winners, as happened in their original evolution from Premiership newcomers to first-time title winners in 2017. The pattern of five different clubs being champions in the last five seasons is also a plus.

    “The Premiership has changed a bit as a competition. It doesn’t look like a competition where you are going to get a lot of back-to-back finals or back-to-back winners. It’s been a little while now since that scenario seemed to be repeating itself and that will make it interesting again this year.

    “Don’t forget we are building this team similar to how we built that team that got us to that first Premiership final in that we came into the Premiership with a relatively low budget, well below the salary cap. As our crowd grew, as the business grew and we developed Sandy Park, my playing budget grew, we grew the team with that and it enabled us to keep our best young players.

    “We are probably back in that process in that we have had to cut our budget and we have cut our cloth accordingly for us to be getting back to making profit and the minute that happens the budget goes up and you start to move forward. My aim is to see our pathway follow the same path but the ingredients are there.

    “We have a homegrown group who look like they are going to be here a long time plus we should have able to add and expand the squad as it stands now going forward. The squad as it stands now is not like, ‘That’s it, there is nothing more we can do, we’re stretching every penny out of the salary cap’.

    “We are about as far from that as you can get so if our homegrown players all become internationals I would expect to be able to keep them all. There’s probably not a lot of teams in that position at the moment.

    “We could go out and cherry-pick two or three very top-quality players if we feel it is necessary to add them as we did. We bought Nic White (in the past), which brought us on, we went and got Dean Mumm. We will be in a position to do that again as well which is all going to be part of the formula of improving a young team.”

    So, where will Exeter sit when the dust settles on 2024/25? “It’s just so hard to predict. You look at the squads, at the teams who were contesting the final for example (Northampton and Bath), you can’t look at them and go, ‘They are not going to be good teams’ because they haven’t lost much, they have spent that extra time together.

    “You do look at the teams who finish in the top half of the league and you go, ‘They are going to be very good teams’. The challenge for those of us who didn’t finish in the top half is how we improve and add to ourselves to break into that group.”

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    Comments on RugbyPass

    I
    IkeaBoy 2 hours ago
    Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

    “Why are you so insistent on being wrong? Man United won in 2008 (beating Chelsea in the final). In 2009 Barcelona won, beating United.”

    Good lad, just checking. So you’re not a bot! Chelsea bombed the 2008 final more than United won it. John Terry… couldn’t happen to a nicer fella.


    “The gap between wins ignores the finals contested. 2 in 2 years with his City Triumph. The most recent put him in the elite company of managers to have won it with multiple clubs. Yet more late career success and history.”

    Again - you’re not correct. City won the CL in 2023, and made the final in 2021. Those are the only two CL finals they have made.”

    So the difference between 2021 and 2023 would of course be TWO YEARS. 24 months would account for 3 different seasons. They contested ECL finals twice in two years. The first in 2021 - which they lost - was still the first elite European final in the clubs then 141 year history. Explain clearly how that’s not an achievement? Guess what age he was then…


    “I think your take on Gatland is pretty silly. Gatland was without Edwards in the 2013 and 2017 Lions tours and managed to do alright.”

    I thought you don’t care what certain managers did 10 years ago…

    Why would I address Eddie Jones? Why would he be deserving of a single sentence?


    “I am aware Les Kiss has achieved great things in his career, but I don’t care what he did over ten years ago. Rugby was a different sport back then.”

    So you haven’t watched even a minute of Super Rugby this year?


    “lol u really need to chill out”

    Simply frightful! If you’re not a bot you’re at least Gen-Z?

    171 Go to comments
    f
    fl 3 hours ago
    Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

    “Pep didn’t win the ECL in 2009. It was 2008 with Barca”

    Why are you so insistent on being wrong? Man United won in 2008 (beating Chelsea in the final). In 2009 Barcelona won, beating United.


    “The gap between wins ignores the finals contested. 2 in 2 years with his City Triumph. The most recent put him in the elite company of managers to have won it with multiple clubs. Yet more late career success and history.”

    Again - you’re not correct. City won the CL in 2023, and made the final in 2021. Those are the only two CL finals they have made. With Barcelona, Pep made the semi final four consecutive times - with City he’s managed only 3 in 8 years. This year they didn’t even make the round of 16.


    To re-cap, you wrote that Pep “has gotten better with age. By every measure.” There are some measures that support what you’re saying, but the vast majority of the measures that you have highlighted actually show the opposite.


    I am aware Les Kiss has achieved great things in his career, but I don’t care what he did over ten years ago. Rugby was a different sport back then.


    I think your take on Gatland is pretty silly. Gatland was without Edwards in the 2013 and 2017 Lions tours and managed to do alright. You’ve also not addressed Eddie Jones.


    I agree wrt Schmidt. He would ideally be retained, but it wouldn’t work to have a remote head coach. He should definitely be hired as a consultant/analyst/selector though.


    “Look at the talent that would be discarded in Schmidt and Kiss if your age Nazism was applied.”

    lol u really need to chill out lad. Kiss and Schmidt would both be great members of the coaching set up in 2025, but it would be ridiculous to bank on either to retain the head coach role until 2031.

    171 Go to comments
    I
    IkeaBoy 3 hours ago
    Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

    Pep didn’t win the ECL in 2009. It was 2008 with Barca. The gap between wins ignores the finals contested. 2 in 2 years with his City Triumph. The most recent put him in the elite company of managers to have won it with multiple clubs. Yet more late career success and history.


    His time with City - a lower win ratio compared to Bayern Munich as you say - includes a 100 PT season. A feat that will likely never be surpassed. I appreciate you don’t follow soccer too closely but even casual fans refer to the sport in ‘pre and post Pep’ terms and all because of what he has achieved and is continuing to achieve, late career. There is a reason that even U10’s play out from the back now at every level of the game. That’s also a fairly recent development.


    How refreshing to return to rugby on a rugby forum.


    Ireland won a long over due slam in 2009. The last embers of a golden generation was kicked on by a handful of young new players and a new senior coach. Kiss was brought in as defence coach and was the reason they won it. They’d the best defence in the game at the time. He all but invented the choke tackle. Fittingly they backed it up in the next world cup in their 2011 pool match against… Australia. The instantly iconic image of Will Genia getting rag-dolled by Stephen Ferris.


    His career since has even included director of rugby positions. He would have an extremely good idea of where the game is at and where it is going in addition to governance experience and dealings. Not least in Oz were many of the players will have come via or across Rugby League pathways.


    Gatland isn’t a valid coach to compare too. He only ever over-achieved and was barely schools level without Shaun Edwards at club or test level. His return to Wales simply exposed his limitations and a chaotic union. It wasn’t age.


    Schmidt is open to staying involved in a remote capacity which I think deserves more attention. It would be a brain drain to lose him. He stepped in to coach the ABs in the first 2022 test against Ireland when Foster was laid out with Covid. They mullered Ireland 42-19. He was still heavily involved in the RWC 2023 quarter final. Same story.


    Look at the talent that would be discarded in Schmidt and Kiss if your age Nazism was applied.

    171 Go to comments
    f
    fl 5 hours ago
    Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

    “He won a ECL and a domestic treble at the beginning of his career.”

    He won 2 ECLs at the beginning of his career (2009, 2011). Since then he’s won 1 in 15 years.


    “He then won 3 leagues on the bounce later in his career”

    He won 3 leagues on the bounce at the start of his career too - (2009, 2010, 2011).


    If we’re judging him by champions league wins, he peaked in his late 30s, early 40s. If we’re judging him by domestic titles he’s stayed pretty consistent over his career. If we’re judging him by overall win rate he peaked at Bayern, and was better at Barcelona than at City. So no, he hasn’t gotten better by every measure.


    “You mentioned coaches were older around the mid-2010’s compared to the mid-2000’s. Robson was well above the average age you’ve given for those periods even in the 90’s when in his pomp.”

    Robson was 63-64 when he was at Barcelona, so he wasn’t very old. But yeah, he was slightly above the average age of 60 I gave for the top 4 premier league coaches in 2015, and quite a bit above the averages for 2005 and 2025.


    “Also, comparing coaches - and their experiences, achievements - at different ages is unstable. It’s not a valid way to compare and tends to torpedo your own logic when you do compare them on equal terms. I can see why you don’t like doing it.”

    Well my logic certainly hasn’t been torpedoed. Currently the most successful premier league coaches right now are younger than they were ten years ago. You can throw all the nuance at it that you want, but that fact won’t change. It’s not even clear what comparing managers “on equal terms” would even mean, or why it would be relevant to anything I’ve said.


    “You still haven’t answered why Kiss could be a risker appointment?”

    Because I’ve been talking to you about football managers. If you want to change the subject then great - I care a lot more about rugby than I do football.

    But wrt Kiss, I don’t agree that 25 years experience is actually that useful, given what a different sport rugby was 25 years ago. Obviously in theory more experience can never be a bad thing, but I think 10 years of coaching experience is actually more than enough these days. Erasmus had been a coach for 13 years when he got the SA top job. Andy Farrell had been a coach for 9 when he got the Ireland job. I don’t think anyone would say that either of them were lacking in experience.


    Now - what about coaches who do have 25+ years experience? The clearest example of that would be Eddie Jones, who started coaching 31 years ago. He did pretty well everywhere he worked until around 2021 (when he was 61), when results with England hit a sharp decline. He similarly oversaw a terrible run with Australia, and currently isn’t doing a great job with Japan.

    Another example is Warren Gatland, who also started coaching full-time 31 years ago, after 5 years as a player-coach. Gatland did pretty well everywhere he went until 2020 (when he was 56), when he did a relatively poor job with the Chiefs, before doing a pretty poor job with the Lions, and then overseeing a genuine disaster with Wales. There are very few other examples, as most coaches retire or step back into lesser roles when they enter their 60s. Mick Byrne actually has 34 years experience in coaching (but only 23 years coaching in rugby) and at 66 he’s the oldest coach of a top 10 side, and he’s actually doing really well. He goes to show that you can continue to be a good coach well into your 60s, but he seems like an outlier.


    So the point is - right now, Les Kiss looks like a pretty reliable option, but 5 years ago so did Eddie Jones and Warren Gatland before they went on to prove that coaches often decline as they get older. If Australia want Kiss as a short term appointment to take over after Schmidt leaves in the summer, I don’t think that would be a terrible idea - but NB wanted Kiss as a long term appointment starting in 2027! That’s a massive risk, given the chance that his aptitude will begin to decline.


    Its kind of analagous to how players decline. We know (for example) that a fly-half can still be world class at 38, but we also know that most fly-halves peak in their mid-to-late 20s, so it is generally considered a risk to build your game plan around someone much older than that.

    171 Go to comments
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