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'For the rest of the world, it's an ominous sign': Bok greats issue warning

South Africa's Eben Etzebeth holds the Nelson Mandela Plate with his players after their victory during the Rugby Championship Test match between Australia and South Africa at Optus Stadium in Perth on August 17, 2024. (Photo by COLIN MURTY / AFP)

Round two of the Rugby Championship proved to the rugby world that South Africa have an unparalleled level of squad depth, if anyone was not already aware.

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A Springboks side so heavily rotated that there had been accusations of disrespect managed to pull off a 30-12 bonus-point win over Australia in Perth, to leave them at the summit of the competition table. For a side that had widely been described as a ‘B team’ or ‘second string’, that was some statement and one that South Africa legend Schalk Burger said is an “ominous sign” to the rest of the world.

Many, if not all, of South Africa’s available frontline players will be rolled out for rounds three and four of the Championship with back-to-back fixtures against the All Blacks looming after a week’s break.

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Springbok coach Rassie Erasmus looks forward to facing the All Blacks

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      Springbok coach Rassie Erasmus looks forward to facing the All Blacks

      Springbok coach Rassie Erasmus previews the two-Test Rugby Championship series against the All Blacks

      Scott Robertson’s side travel to South Africa for the two fixtures at a time where Burger’s former Bok teammate and fellow World Cup winner Jean de Villiers says South African rugby is in the “best shape” it has ever been in.

      The pair discussed the position the world champions find themselves in at the moment on the latest episode of RugbyPass TV’s The Boks Office, and what that means for the rest of the world.

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      “Complacency is certainly something that you will not see with this squad at the moment,” de Villiers said.

      “Because a little bit of complacency – you get selected, you don’t perform – you will be replaced. And you will be replaced by someone that is probably just as good as you.

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      “There’s so little to differentiate most positions in terms of the players we have there and the depth that we have there. I think it’s the best shape South African rugby has ever been in.”

      Burger added: “You look at the players that played tight five. And you can’t say they were third choice because that never happened- they were first choice on the weekend. But if you look at the players you can pick ahead of them, when they are all fit, a lot of these players will probably be third in the list for playing for the Boks. I think for the rest of the world, that’s an ominous sign.”

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      Comments

      35 Comments
      B
      BP 226 days ago

      I love how everyone keeps having a ago at SA/SA players/SA Ex players and fans.... clearly we the worst country in the world with the worst people, but still they can't beat us.... should stop moaning and concentrate on their own teams and fans......we will see what happens come 2027.....

      N
      NE 225 days ago

      Neutral, unbiased officiating over the past 3 decades would see SA lucky to be a tier 1 rugby union nation. Fact. Sadly SA's world renowned army of rugby dunce supporters are just rmtoo ignorant to grasp reality.

      C
      CO 226 days ago

      Test, test and test again. Out of competition testing needs to be rigorous for the Boks. Huge red flags with Bok rugby and the recent band aid banning of a few Boks. A full enquiry needs to be started.

      B
      Bull Shark 226 days ago

      Please go ahead and start it.

      T
      Turlough 226 days ago

      Just a Q to Bok supporters. Is the team that played against Australia 2nd test, likely to be the rump of the team that will start the RWC in 2027? IOW were we looking at the Boks 2027 team there?


      If that's the case then Erasmus approach is very interesting:

      1st team is RWC 2023 with a sprinking of RWC 2027.

      2nd team is RWC 2027 with a sprinking of RWC 2023.

      Gradually more and more 2nd team (RWC 2027 players) are in the first team and new players enter the 2nd team.

      Beating NZ twice is important for this project as it means that Erasmus can play the NC 2026/RWC 2027 team for one or both matches versus Argentina depending on the Argentina/Aussie results.


      In the Nations cup for example SA will play 3, 6N teams down douth and 3 in Europe.

      Depending on the opposition Erasmus may view it necessary to rotate the squad in some matches as the means to gain overall success.

      D
      DC000 226 days ago

      Burger continues to spew an inordinate amount of ignorant shite. Even for a Saffa.


      The thing you have to do to stay relevant to a nation of massive thickos, right?


      It's sad anyone thinks he has something useful to add to the conversation.


      Perhaps he should opine how very few Saffas actually attend matches - with stadiums at Currie Cup and URC matches barely 20‰filled (if that on a great day) - but still manage to talk a massive amount of laughable shite. At least that might be entertaining, if not informative.

      G
      GrahamVF 225 days ago

      Why to you bother Dumb C@%T tripple zero bigot. You probably live in a council house with parents and grandparents - never played rugby and put down those who you perceive as socio economically inferior and zone in on SA because you have absolutely no experience outside your dingy street and view South Africa through what you read on this forum. I can assure you I live a lifestyle and enjoy medical treatment and education that you could only dream of. PS look up some very interesting researched articles on how dumb and ill informed bigots really are. You fit the bill perfectly. So we will forgive you for your obvious lack of intellect, education and class.

      A
      AS 226 days ago

      URC stadiums pretty full especially Cape Town Stadium. Internationals sold out, yes CC has few spectators, it's no longer seen as a first class competition, which is sad, but we get more bums in seats than any team down under, even the Bulls and Lions do. SR is not that well watched.

      F
      Forward pass 226 days ago

      Haha BOK proclaims self greatness and importance....... Shock horror.

      G
      GrahamVF 225 days ago

      Really meaningful comment. Can't wait for the next announcement. Talk about self importance and arrogance.

      T
      Toaster 227 days ago

      The Boks are an amazing team but their fans, ex players and media are becoming rather install about their status currently


      I mean Ireland just beat them

      France combusted at the World Cup but look the most dangerous of anyone and really should have won the World Cup just IMO

      By far the most talented side and put away the ABs with ease frustratingly


      Who knows about the ABs and England but they are rebuilding big time

      T
      Turlough 226 days ago

      The few months before the SA-Ireland series were dominated by outraged claims of Irish arrogance after Warburton and Davies (both Welsh) suggested Ireland might be the current no 1 after beating France by 21 points away. Now Erasmus is a master at galvanizing his troops with a common sense of injustice in 15 brains driving them on before and during matches. I understand that although I'd contest he galvanized Ireland more than SA in that series.

      This stuff now could be undermining though. I see Erasmus has reigned the trash talk in a little after the Ireland series but SA are setting themselves up as a target to be knocked down. Altitude complicates things in the first test, but Ireland showed plenty that NZ can use. Underdog status will suit NZ also, big time.

      S
      SF 226 days ago

      Correct. I'm a Saffa and a few moments ago I made a comment to someone about us South Africans who can get bigheaded very quickly. Yes the Boks is a good team. For now. Rassie has a huge task on his hands to keep the players grounded and humble.

      Like Jake mentioned in his comment on Rugby pass, team dynamics is a fragile thing. With Siya and Eben suddenly becoming celebrities with the MMA fight the other night, comes ego.

      Burger and JDV were out of line with their comments. Stay grounded boys...

      D
      DA 226 days ago

      for a long time the Bok supporters have been ridiculed by arrogant rude people mocking the Boks. Do you get it?????

      L
      Lou Cifer 226 days ago

      If I have to hear one more time of how Ireland or France should've won the RWC in 2023🤦🏽‍♂️


      France have immense depth too, but "by far the most talented side" is very subjective

      T
      Turlough 227 days ago

      SA are not the only ones building incredible depth:


      French squad that beat Argenina 13-28 in Mendoza recently.


      FB 15 Léo Barré

      RW 14 Théo Attissogbé

      OC 13 Émilien Gailleton

      IC 12 Antoine Frisch

      LW 11 Lester Etien

      FH 10 Antoine Hastoy

      SH 9 Baptiste Serin (c)

      N8 8 Jordan Joseph

      OF 7 Oscar Jegou

      BF 6 Lenni Nouchi

      RL 5 Baptiste Pesenti

      LL 4 Hugo Auradou

      TP 3 Georges-Henri Colombe

      HK 2 Gaëtan Barlot

      LP 1 Jean-Baptiste Gros

      Replacements:

      HK 16 Teddy Baubigny

      PR 17 Sébastien Taofifénua

      PR 18 Demba Bamba

      LK 19 Posolo Tuilagi

      FL 20 Mickaël Guillard

      FL 21 Ibrahim Diallo

      SH 22 Baptiste Couilloud

      FB 23 Melvyn Jaminet

      F
      Forward pass 226 days ago

      What was the French side that lost to Argentina recently? Another French master team?

      S
      SK 227 days ago

      Springboks do have alot of depth when you consider their injury list prior to the Rugby Championship. Damian Willemse, Canan Moodie, Jean Kleyn, Steven Kitshoff, RG Snyman, Lood De Jager, Franco Mostert, Faf De Klerk, Andre Esterhuizen, Jaden Hendrickse, Herschel Jantjies and Jasper Wiese are all world cup winners and they did not play a game in Australia.

      B
      Bull Shark 226 days ago

      And that injury list can also be thought of as a rest and recovery list. There is a lot of value in being able to rest players for prolonged periods without the team suffering.


      There was a lot of noise about Evan Roos getting sidelined. But I’m pretty sure there was an open discussion that said - go get surgery, get the issue sorted. We’ll bring you in for the NH tour. We want to sue this time to give others a chance. Louw. Smith even.


      Same story for Damian Willemse. Get the op. We want to see what SFM and Fassi can do.


      Kitschoff coming off a sh1t spell from europe. Moving back home. He must be raring to go. Fresh as a juicy plum ready for the market. Maybe Koch gets a break?

      B
      Bull Shark 226 days ago

      Right now there is probably, on average, three players per position in the Bok fold.


      There are definite 1st stringers and 2nd stringers, and in some positions that might switch up fairly regularly. Like at 9 and 10 at the moment. I’m not sure who Rassie views as 1st choice 10. Based on form.


      But then there’s the option for the game at hand. So for example, Pollard or Manie will start against the ABs. My gut tells me pollard is the safe bet but Manie might be sh1t hot in form in training. Thats the benefit of our depth currently - which de Villiers is highlighting.


      Kirwan said the same thing - that SA are where the AbS were, with 33 odd players who could slot in and it didn’t matter who you picked.

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      f
      fl 29 minutes ago
      Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

      “He won a ECL and a domestic treble at the beginning of his career.”

      He won 2 ECLs at the beginning of his career (2009, 2011). Since then he’s won 1 in 15 years.


      “He then won 3 leagues on the bounce later in his career”

      He won 3 leagues on the bounce at the start of his career too - (2009, 2010, 2011).


      If we’re judging him by champions league wins, he peaked in his late 30s, early 40s. If we’re judging him by domestic titles he’s stayed pretty consistent over his career. If we’re judging him by overall win rate he peaked at Bayern, and was better at Barcelona than at City. So no, he hasn’t gotten better by every measure.


      “You mentioned coaches were older around the mid-2010’s compared to the mid-2000’s. Robson was well above the average age you’ve given for those periods even in the 90’s when in his pomp.”

      Robson was 63-64 when he was at Barcelona, so he wasn’t very old. But yeah, he was slightly above the average age of 60 I gave for the top 4 premier league coaches in 2015, and quite a bit above the averages for 2005 and 2025.


      “Also, comparing coaches - and their experiences, achievements - at different ages is unstable. It’s not a valid way to compare and tends to torpedo your own logic when you do compare them on equal terms. I can see why you don’t like doing it.”

      Well my logic certainly hasn’t been torpedoed. Currently the most successful premier league coaches right now are younger than they were ten years ago. You can throw all the nuance at it that you want, but that fact won’t change. It’s not even clear what comparing managers “on equal terms” would even mean, or why it would be relevant to anything I’ve said.


      “You still haven’t answered why Kiss could be a risker appointment?”

      Because I’ve been talking to you about football managers. If you want to change the subject then great - I care a lot more about rugby than I do football.

      But wrt Kiss, I don’t agree that 25 years experience is actually that useful, given what a different sport rugby was 25 years ago. Obviously in theory more experience can never be a bad thing, but I think 10 years of coaching experience is actually more than enough these days. Erasmus had been a coach for 13 years when he got the SA top job. Andy Farrell had been a coach for 9 when he got the Ireland job. I don’t think anyone would say that either of them were lacking in experience.


      Now - what about coaches who do have 25+ years experience? The clearest example of that would be Eddie Jones, who started coaching 31 years ago. He did pretty well everywhere he worked until around 2021 (when he was 61), when results with England hit a sharp decline. He similarly oversaw a terrible run with Australia, and currently isn’t doing a great job with Japan.

      Another example is Warren Gatland, who also started coaching full-time 31 years ago, after 5 years as a player-coach. Gatland did pretty well everywhere he went until 2020 (when he was 56), when he did a relatively poor job with the Chiefs, before doing a pretty poor job with the Lions, and then overseeing a genuine disaster with Wales. There are very few other examples, as most coaches retire or step back into lesser roles when they enter their 60s. Mick Byrne actually has 34 years experience in coaching (but only 23 years coaching in rugby) and at 66 he’s the oldest coach of a top 10 side, and he’s actually doing really well. He goes to show that you can continue to be a good coach well into your 60s, but he seems like an outlier.


      So the point is - right now, Les Kiss looks like a pretty reliable option, but 5 years ago so did Eddie Jones and Warren Gatland before they went on to prove that coaches often decline as they get older. If Australia want Kiss as a short term appointment to take over after Schmidt leaves in the summer, I don’t think that would be a terrible idea - but NB wanted Kiss as a long term appointment starting in 2027! That’s a massive risk, given the chance that his aptitude will begin to decline.


      Its kind of analagous to how players decline. We know (for example) that a fly-half can still be world class at 38, but we also know that most fly-halves peak in their mid-to-late 20s, so it is generally considered a risk to build your game plan around someone much older than that.

      168 Go to comments
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      AlanCriner 59 minutes ago
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      My name is Alan Criner, and I'm a resident of Toronto, CA. I'm a 45-year-old financial analyst who has always been cautious with my investments. However, in my quest to diversify my portfolio, I fell prey to a devastating fake crypto investment scam, losing 125,000 Canadian dollars' worth of Bitcoin. This traumatic experience sent my life into a downward spiral, leaving me depressed and feeling hopeless.

      Despite my repeated attempts to contact the account manager who initially approached me on Telegram, I was met with silence. They refused to provide any explanation or information, and I was locked out of my account on their website. The authorities were unable to assist me, as the scammers were untraceable.

      Just when I thought all was lost, my nephew, a Canadian government lawyer, introduced me to Morphohack Cyber Service, a reputable private investigator and crypto recovery company. I visited their website (www . morphohackcyber . com) and, after mustering the courage, contacted them. They listened attentively as I recounted my ordeal and educated me on the scam, revealing that numerous others had fallen victim to the same scheme.

      Although skeptical at first, I decided to take a chance. Morphohack guided me through the process, instructing me to set up a new wallet. To my astonishment, they successfully recovered my stolen Bitcoin and transferred it to my new wallet. I was stunned, struggling to comprehend how this was possible.

      I initially wanted to keep this experience private, but I realized that there may be others out there who have suffered similar losses. If you're a victim of crypto theft, I urge you to reach out to Morphohack Cyber Service. They can be contacted through their website or email. (Morphohack@cyberservices . com, Info@morphohackcyber . com) Don't give up hope, there is a way to recover your stolen crypto assets.

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      NB 2 hours ago
      Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

      https://www.london.edu/think/how-claudio-ranieri-transformed-leicester-city


      He jts knew how to use that deep well of knowledge accumulate over many years of management. A true Moneyball story!

      168 Go to comments
      f
      fl 3 hours ago
      Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

      “Two comparable achievements 15 years apart (at different clubs in different leagues) represent failure and not continued success for an elite level coach/manager? Not even a hint of consistency? Just gradual, inevitable decline? And all because he is in his sixth decade?”

      Why don’t you try reading what I wrote before you start inventing a load of other random things that I didn’t say. I said “Pep hasn’t gotten better with age”. He hasn’t. I don’t think he’s got much worse, and yeah, he’s been fairly consistent over his career and has had more success than almost any other coach. But he hasn’t gotten better.


      “You’ve missed that Mourinho’s early start in football was as a translator for Bobby Robson (ironically a much older manager at the time!).”

      I was actually aware of that. I didn’t mention it because it wasn’t relevant to the fact that Mourinho - aged 52 - had more experience than Arteta does at 43. It also isn’t ironic that Bobby Robson was a much older manager at the time - it actually confirms by point that a lot of the top football managers used to be older than they are today.


      “You suggested that Les Kiss would not be suited to an international coaching role because of his age profile…that seemed to relate to rugby”

      That did relate to rugby. Let me walk you through the thread…


      NB suggested that Les Kiss should become Australia head coach in 2027.

      I said: “Given the drop off so many top coaches seem to experience as they get older (e.g. Jones, Gatland) Kiss could be a riskier appointment than you’d think!”

      NB said: “Drawing a parallel with the NFL and NBA, plenty of coaches stay well into their 70’s”

      I said: “Not all sports are going the same way though” then gave the example of football.


      The example of football was introduced in order to make the point that the age profile of managers is not the same in every sport. If you had read the thread you were replying to you would know this!

      168 Go to comments
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