LONG READ Ben Kay: 'I’d put my money on Ollie Chessum being the next England captain.'

“I saw the article in the Telegraph the other day [asking] are Ireland a hard team to enjoy? Are they getting ahead of themselves? I would say, the supporters, yes, the team, absolutely not.”

Can YOU read. Why are you being dishonest?

He also said:

“That just happens, successful teams will not be loved. People get a bit fed up with it.”

So, he is saying that being accused of arrogance is a symptom of a successful team.

“I don’t see it a huge amount, but just from word of mouth”

“I there’s things that are put out on social media and conversations that don’t showcase the best of us”

So O’Driscoll hasn’t PERSONALLY seen any arrogance from supporters he is gleaning it from hearsay, for example, from the right wing Tory Telegraph (anti Irish) who in that article called Irish supporters “Red faced idiots”. He also appears to be painting all Irish posters based on a few conversations on social media he had heard about (hearsay). Its nonsense.

It is a good that Irish pundits are not afraid to be critical of the Irish team or fans even if its based on bias and hearsay. The vast majority of pundits know that the vast vast majority of Irish fans are just rugby fans enjoying a good spell for their team.

If we were to base fan arrogance on the existence of arrogant social media content as O’Driscoll does, then all nations are guilty. If we are to base it on the proportion of social media content that is arrogant then NZ and SA media absolutely dominate the sphere. As usual hypocrisy is not far behind arrogance which explains your self righteousness in pointing a finger at Ireland instead of three fingers at NZ. We could hear the whining from space since NZ started stuttering in the early 2020s. Arrogant winners, terrible losers.

😂😂😂

Pete frequently did take it up with the English

If you want to know what 800 years of oppression and illegal occupational look like, watch him during any of the pre-match anthems

Warrior

Hey it wasn't us kiwis who voted for him. Take it up with the English.

‘dirtiest player ever’

I'd be looking for lengthy bans, substantial poor disciplinary record, off the field bad behaviour, eye gouging, sack grabbing, headbutting, a history of targeted foul play, verbally abusing refs…

You got the wrong guy, chief

Here’s a parallel you may just appreciate: Diego Maradona scored two of the most famous goals in soccer history, in the same match and within 4 mins of each other

Only the salty English moan about the hand of god. The rest of the sporting world revelled in the goal of the century

It was only kiwis his sledge upset. Not the rugby world. Time to move on

I'm sure his teammates respect him but overseas we notice the trash talk and cheating. And I doubt that the Welshman who copped a flying forearm in the face when helpless in a ruck would call him clean.

Can you read? It's clear that he didn't base it on the Telegraph article. And he also clearly stated that it's about being bad winners, not having “aspirations.”

He's big enough to face the facts. Why can't you?

One ignorant pundit amongst dozens doesn’t cut it. And its hearsay.

Having to repeat myself O’Driscoll based this on a Telegraph article. The article itself was based on an “Off The Ball” segment taking the p1ss out of Wales. The article also added hearsay about an Irish supporter “ a red faced idiot” who apparently said “what’s your plan B” after Ireland scored within a minute v Scotland in RWC. So we can discount the second scenario as nosnense.

Even if you count the clearly joking OTB piece we had 99% of articles respectful to Wales. Obviously the 1% does not represent the vast vast majority of respectful byline in Ireland.

O’Driscoll is not liked amongst Irish supporters. He never chatted to fans and always walked straight by those folks who might have had a disability and would have dreamed of a signature for the ‘great’ man. O’Driscoll also stated Ireland would win only two matches in 6N 2026.

He is a click bait man and represents the tiny arrogant minority.

So you still have a handful of examples over decades with NZ showing more examples even in the few weeks since Rennie was appointed. Have I got that wrong?

NZ are very poor losers and demonized Ireland in 2022 just as they did England in 2002/3.

Grow up and move on. We are allowed to have aspirations too.

He was the quintessential team mate for Munster and Ireland

The sledge was in response to Cane acting the playground bully and starting on an Irish team mate

As much as the ABs got sweet revenge the following year, the sledge was in the 75th minute of a game Ireland led 7-23. Pete and Ireland, backed it up the following week when it counted to take the series

You can win a RWC without even facing the ABs much less having to beat them at home on the bounce

His disciplinary record would suggest he was a clean player across 13 professional seasons

Amazing how different his reputation is in Ireland compared to the rest of the world.

Ireland flanker Peter O’Mahony named rugby union’s dirtiest player https://share.google/uLNgNagnEhRL5xmBE

Agree, Pete's reputation was forged by his first test cap. Warrior

He also has a very well developed sense of humour, lost on many (“Jesus wept! That's my mother!”)

Pete was in the Irish team that got robbed (by Nigel Owens) in the second test in 2012. He talked about the well meaning but patronising response of kiwis - “ah, unlucky. You’s deserved to win that one. Hard lines”.

Ultimately, the only way to really get your opponents respect is to beat them into the dirt in their own back yard

My God did Pete know that!!!!

Warrior

It was his best game but in a great team performance.

POM had definitely made his reputation before 2022.

I had hoped half way through that rant you'd realised that nobody considers thinking or saying one could win a World Cup is arrogant. The information was all there in the rant.

Sorry mate, but sections of your fan base are considered arrogant overseas. Don't believe me, believe your own best player.

“For sure, not like maybe,” O’Driscoll told RTE when asked about Irish arrogance.

“We’re not in a good place to make a decision ourselves on how we are as a team that’s going well, it’s other people who will make that decision on our behalf.

“You have to remember, with teams that have gone well, and Leinster would be the same, I don’t think there’s much love for Leinster across Europe. People will say that’s because the fans are hard to deal with.

“I hear that from my [ITV] work colleagues over in the UK, there’s not much love for Leinster and there’s less and less love for Ireland around being good winners.

“There are things that are put out on social media and conversations that don’t showcase the best of us, certainly don’t help our case of saying, ‘no, we’re humble winners.’

“So we have to be mindful of it. We’ve said the same about everybody else: ‘Scotland getting ahead of themselves, Wales being hard work, oh, England being arrogant’.

“I think we might need to internalise an awful lot of that and have a good hard look at ourselves. “

You said: “It went way above “noting we were contenders” and totally rebounded on them because it gave the All Blacks such a steely determination when it mattered the most.”

You accused Ireland of arrogance and stated that this was the reason they lost the RWC QF. You stated that this was common knowledge amongst “groundswells” of English, Saffer, and NZ supporters. You accused me of attacking English supporters (I was agreeing with them). You then attacked the Irish player POM for sledging Cane, implying that it was this in fact that was responsible for Ireland losing the QF (even though NZ give as good as they get and Cane was attempting the physically intimidate an Irish player at the time). It was also noted that during the NZ series in 2022 NZ media belittled Ireland after the second test claiming how poor they were as they previously lost to NZ 60-0. After using the series NZ further used insulting language claiming the loss was cataclysmic etc in a clear belittling of Ireland’s achievement.

You will note that since Rennie has become Coach NZ punters (including Rennie) have talked about winning RWCs and Nation championships more times combined than total from Ireland EVER. Yet you continue your preposterous claims about Irish arrogance.

So YES, we are entitled to talk about challenging for a RWC. Your attack since that was mentioned just shows why so many Irish people were shy about doing this even before the RWC 2023 where we were in with a genuine shout.

You said it was his best game for the ABs

I don't think the sledge defines either player nor should it

I didn't give the credit to Cane. The whole team had the benefit of extra motivation to cash in their receipts.

This is getting ridiculous. Where on earth did I say that Ireland were overly vocal about winning the World Cup? I pointed out that your claim “nobody from either Celtic nation would speak openly about winning a world cup” was nonsense.

Nobody spoke openly about it as NZ, SA, Eng, Fra do all the time. I believe Celtic nations should have no shame about that ambition. Your ignorant, unsubstantiated pile in by insisting that not only was Ireland overly vocal about winning the RWC2023 but was arrogant in doing so shows how difficult it is for smaller rugby nations to have ambitions.

I am glad to see Farrell start to talk about ambitions although he is reticent of publicly naming them. At least one global title before the end of 2027 should be the target, preferably a RWC.

Again, you’re romanticising it and giving too much credit to Cane

It was the ever green Whitelock who got them a semi final

All the evidence - the All Backs cashing their “receipts” makes it pretty obvious that there was extra motivation for that match. Very foolish to give your opponents that sort of edge in the most important match of your life.

I doubt Pete lived in their heads or Cane’s

Progressing in the tournament would have been the teams motivation. He was one of many excellent ABs on the day

The final though was probably the worst match of his career

Again, it's not life or death. It's indulgent

Classy response from Cane as always.

“Iconic sledge” that copied an old insult/soccer chant and motivated the All Blacks to their best match under Foster and Cane's best match of his career. Very foolish to provoke a worthy advisory like that.

Good man, JD!

They're obviously fake. I've seen multiple different versions with multiple different profile pics on them

On the other hand, O’Mahonys iconic sledge was picked up in a live game and will forever reside on YouTube. Cane himself called it good rugby banter

Think its important to remember that. It's not like either players or teams are dropping bombs on Gaza

Perspective

Like I said, it was only posted on a joke site. Not a reputable outlet like the Irish Times. They know very well that anyone can forge a What's App. Only a fool would rely on that as evidence.

“nobody from either Celtic nation would speak openly about winning a world cup” is an exact copy paste from your original post.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

If you literally can't use a search engine that's on you…

Though why would you even admit to that?

I respect you take the time to reply so I'll always return serve out of respect. I haven't been able to get past your first paragraph though for the above reason

https://www.benchwarmers.ie/sam-cane-rugby-world-cup-rwc-union/268023/

The site is linked to The Irish Times who are themselves compliant with the accepted codes of practice around print journalism

I can link you some instructions too for using online search engines?

It looks that way

His final insult to Irish rugby

Johnny Sexton spoke openly about Ireland finally being in a position to challenge for the world cup. This was the only public pronouncement of anything like this ambition as far as I am aware, and he was admonished and misrepresented by people like you who starwmanned his comments as “Ireland think they have the world cup won already”. That comment echoed around idiot websites probably did most of the heavy lifting in the echo chamber of social media.

One incident or one joke internet poll in England doesn’t make POM the dirtiest player of all time or even a dirty player. Sam Cane tried to push around an Irish player, POM stepped in and the mic picked up the sledge. Therefore NZ demonized him. Don’t blame him for your loss.

Ireland were ranked in the top 2 in the world and the assessment in NZ media of your loss as “cataclysmic”, “Catastrophic”, “Disastrous”, “Unforgivable”, “calamitous” etc etc showed the utter arrogance NZ holds for yourself and the fact that YOU probably didn’t notice this until right now shows the utter self entitlement your rugby nation has. How do you think you are? Do you not see how utterly self delusional your calling a country like Ireland “arrogant” is?

The NW pundits said NZ WOULD WIN a global tournament and you have no issue with it. Entitlement. Sexton (alone of Irish) said we are competitive in the RWC 2023 and he gets demonized by morons.

I never claimed no-one in Ireland said Ireland might win a RWC I said the proportion was tiny compared to other “contenders” and in no way represented arrogance.

Are you seriously suggesting the proportion of Irish rugby people talking up our world cup chances was in any way comparable to SA or NZ? The posse after Foster was because of his chances of winning a world cup. Such considerations simply do not come into play for Ireland.

No comment on whether your righteous disgust reaches wife beaters as NZ heroes? Do you agree with this?

It was Irish fans who talked about kiwi and Saffers’ views on Irish arrogance. But obviously it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks if it conflicts with your own delusions which just keep coming. POM not a dirty player? You're entitled to your opinion of course but the weight of rugby fans are against you on that one. I suspect that Welshman whose face was rearranged by POM’s flying forearm when helpless in a ruck would disagree too.

As for going on about promotional material or the idea that our objective in TRC shouldn't be to win it, what planet are you on?

Finally, it should be pretty clear that my point was that your claim that “nobody from either Celtic nation would speak openly about winning a world cup” was an absolute load of nonsense. Nowhere did I say that they shouldn't say that. My own pre tournament article concluded that “it’s Ireland or South Africa for me, without either looking dead certs.” But to claim that nobody from Ireland talked about winning a world cup just beggars belief when the opposite was true.

“A groundswell of kiwi and Saffer fans”

How did you measure these? Some of these supporters issue death threats to referees such is their entitlement and arrogance.

Are you saying “The Irish Times” published an editorial stating their position as believing the Irish are arrogant?

Matt Williams has called Kiwis, Saffers, English etc etc arrogant. He’s a contrarian.

English voting POM dirtiest player? He is not even dirty and what has this to do with anything?

This is all you got from trawling the internet? That’s it?

We can find 1000s of examples of Kiwi and Saffer arrogance in the last few years alone. 100s of examples of boastinga nd being condescending to other teams. You are a nutcase and in denial. Your website literally declares yourselves “Superstars” and “Humble Heroes”.

No comment on wide beaters being revered as heroes in your country? Thats cowardly.

An Irish supporter says Ireland should be more vocal about their ambitions and you attack him. Says it all about who is entitled and arrogant.

JUST IN: Jeff Wilson and a few ex NZ players have just named their NZ team to WIN the Nations Championship! Not to challenge for the title, nope, if NZ play this team they WIN irrespective of what other nations do: entitled and arrogant!

For the second time, I'm not a journalist. And I certainly don't have time to get every single piece of evidence.

But I did post up proof of the opinions of the following on Irish arrogance:

Ireland's best ever player

The Irish Times

One of your main TV pundits (an Australian)

English journalists

A groundswell of kiwi and Saffer fans

English fans voting POM the world's dirtiest player.

Yet still you remain in denial about everything. And all you can offer in response is your own bitter opinions.

Enjoy your echo chamber mate.

He is a disaster. Has he no ambitions with NZ even to attempt a performance or two?

Links?

Finding “a person” who says they believe Ireland are arrogant means nothing. There are 1000s of examples of Kiwi pundits etc actually being arrogant. Again allowing domestic violence abusers wear your jersey should bring shame to it: but apparently not, these so called men are heroes. Any comment?

Are you referring to Brian O’Driscoll whose judgement predicted that Ireland would win 2 matches in this years six nations? Unlike many of the players from his teams, O’Driscoll was not a man for talking with supporters after matches always walked through any fan zone rarely if ever stopping even for kids in wheelchairs.

As I journalist I asked you for substantiation not hearsay. Last year OTB took the p1ss out of Wales. Most Welsh rugby people didn’t mind. We (6 Nations people) all know Wales are not shy when the boot is on the other foot. However, the vast majority of Irish articles were supportive of Wales some even doing research showing things that worked for Irish rugby applicable to Wales. Time consuming, costly, helpful stuff.

Nothing helpful like this emanated from any other nation. England had dozens of articles actually condescending to Wales (not clearly in jest). But that doesn’t sell copy and make profits. So the OTB story, started spinning out of control, articles about articles about articles. But the problem was there was nothing else to substantiate this Irish arrogance nonsense. Cue the Trumpian Daily Telegraph. Apparently, a “Red Faced Idiot” Irish supporter was heard saying “Where is your plan B?” to a Scottish supporter in Paris after Ireland’s first try in 2023. This was reported somehow to the Telegraph journalist and there you have it irrefutable proof of Irish arrogance!!! So we have the OTB piece, the Telegraph article about the OTB piece, and the profit man O’Driscoll commenting on the Telegraph piece. Hearsay with xenophobic overtures that O’Driscoll took as fact. Nonsense.

This is literally all you have? As a journalist you should be embarrassed about your cluelessness with how social media and internet echo chambers work. It is actually very poor on your part.

Just after one match we have NZ players (proven, on camera) mocking Irish players after beating them in Paris. Then your players (proven, on camera) started mocking the 60,000 Irish supporters in the stands. We tell our children not to mock beaten opponents after a match. Mocking supporters is another level.

Show some honesty and integrity with your own teams disgusting lack of humility before inventing nonsense to attack others.

Again, please reply with actually evidence and not snips from Internet echo chambers. Youre supposed to be a journalist for God’s sake!!

At your sneering request I posted up links showing that people from NZ, England, South Africa, Australia and even Ireland’s best ever player agree on this matter and still you persist with your ridiculous kiwi echo chamber fantasy.

The only echo chamber here is you and your deluded mate egging each other on, ignoring all evidence from around the world about how your players and sections of your fan base are viewed, while trying to trash a team culture that is highly respected internationally by leaders both within and outside the game.

He's a humble big lad and Leinster, the humble heroes, got humbled on the day

It's fine. It happens in sport. Still only March. Fear not, Ed - he'll be there when they're giving out the prizes 👌

He must be pretty damned educated by now on that measure of his game…😂

Luckily Reiko is tearing it up for Leinster at the moment lol

He's conned them. Leinster will soon have a ‘no all blacks policy’

Not knowing what goes on in ill informed NZ echo chambers is not obliviousness. Again NZ attacked the England team of 2002/2003 as “arrogant” just as the Irish team of 2022/2023. They demonize threats.

I would say calling yourselves “Superstars” and at the same time “Humble Heroes” sums up Kiwi entitlement and obliviousness in one AB website post. Was that not Kiwi supporters whose moaning after RWC2023 was heard from the space station? Thought you were entitled to win?

The only thing bigger than your sense of entitlement is your obliviousness.

That doesn’t make sense. A NZ supporter accused the Irish teams and supporters of arrogance around the 2023 RWC. I am entitled to show exactly where the arrogance lies in World Rugby and during 2023 and it wasn’t with any Northern Hemisphere teams. Shake your head at that son.

And you’re still flogging that dead horse… SMH

Move on, son. Move on.

After Ioane was in the spotlight for his comments to Sexton and his actions to Irish supporters Dagg clarfied the ‘No dickheads’ policy as ‘Not being dickheads to eachother’.

So Smith talking advantage of a young girl was only an issue because it leaked outside the group.

Their ‘no dikcheads’ policy is only as good as the world allows it to be

Smith got cast out for rattling a groupie in the bogs. That's it

Don't cut the mustard on the pitch

We were leaky the first test but the second two were comprehensive with the final score a result of them throwing everything into it and some lenience by the ref. But all we heard after was Peter O’Mahoney, Peter O’Mahoney, Peter O’Mahoney even though all he did was sledge Cane who was pushing an Irish player around. “Humble Heroes” indeed!

Do you remember the second 2022 test (when the ABs dodged a further red card and a penalty try) and auld Foz hooks Ardie?

Not even attempting to grasp the new rule changes and realising it was a permanent substitution?

The guy in charge of the ABs doesn't understand rugby! Wow

I didn't believe what I was seeing!

Exactly. Humble until they are being beaten. All Peter 0 Mahoney’s fault of course. Actually when NZ lost the RWC final Foster blamed the TMO for that match in the same breath blaming the same TMO for the series loss!!

Excellent read

Not all leaders need to be captains but I don't think it suits Itoje

He needs to recapture a bit of form, so having the freedom to focus on his own game might help

I think Fin Smith could be a potential captain.

There seems to be an odd reluctance by rugby writers and pundits to address the reasons behind the woefull England performances against Scotland, Ireland and Italy.

Yes they played better against France, but quite frankly they could hardly have played worse than they already had.

It was Englands worst 6n tournament, thats the simply incontrovertible truth.

Simply trying to gloss over this fact in a “Let’s move on, nothing to see hear” manner, is moral cowardice.

There needs to be accountability!!

Rugby is the winner. France has a thriving rugby set up in all leagues. Borthwick is an accountant , counting data. He is no lions coach either. The RFU is stuck with him. We should be recruiting now for our next manager one year ahead. There are good managers out their. Glasgow Bath , France Ireland. But the England job is a difficult one with club v Country issues as allways. Cheika for a year as stand in would be fun. If Borthwick fell on his sword & ended the misery.

It’s funny. Ireland and Scotland beat England well. But nobody from either Celtic nation would speak openly about winning a world cup without fear of ridicule. Yet, England pundits do it all the time.

England can do what they want, but I would hope that closer to the tournament other teams with hopes and plans for the Webb Ellis will not be afraid to speak up.

On the article, yes I think Chessum might be a good choice. Think the captaincy weighs a bit on Itoje.

Ben.

My money on Chessum too.

If Fin is somewhat unreliable, 6 missed points, and Marcus had to take over, AND he is more likely to score out of nothing , then what on earth is the reason he is not given a run at 10.

It’s staring England in the face who is best.

Now Borthwick has dispensed with Ford, let’s hope the Paris game was not a one off and Borthwick will fine hone the running game with the Smiths .