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Michael Cheika: 'There is still always the time to rip into someone'

Leicester boss Michael Cheika (Photo by Patrick Khachfe/Getty Images)

Michael Cheika has explained why he isn’t shy in giving Leicester players a verbal spray in the same confrontational way he would have done two decades ago at Leinster. The Australian was a coaching rookie when he was handed the opportunity to transform the Irish province in 2005, turning them from also-rans into European champions at the end of his fourth season in 2009.

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Now aged 57 with a wealth of coaching experience under his belt, including guiding the Wallabies to the 2015 Rugby World Cup final and Argentina to the semi-finals in 2023, Cheika has linked up with Leicester for the 2024/25 season on a one-year deal following the sacking of his fellow countryman Dan McKellar after an eighth-place league finish.

The 2022 Gallagher Premiership champions are currently fourth under Cheika with six wins in 10 outings ahead of the completion of their Investec Champions Cup pool with fixtures at home this Saturday to Ulster and away to Toulouse on January 19.

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Ahead of hosting Richie Murphy’s Irish side, Cheika has given a fascinating near 30-minute interview to The Counter Ruck, The Irish Times’ rugby podcast hosted by Nathan Johns and former Ireland and Leinster midfielder Gordon D’Arcy.

Amongst the topics discussed at length by Cheika was whether he is different now at Leicester compared to his rumbustious reputation for revving up players at Leinster in the mid-noughties. “Very much same principles without a doubt, and I’ve evolved and changed and learned lots,” he reckoned.

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“Talk to the boys here (at Tigers), those things that happened there (at Leinster) are still happening here. Human make-up, as much as we change as far as what type of behaviour is acceptable and everything being a little more PC and respectful – and I’m on board with all of that stuff. But there is still always the time to rip into someone in the right way because you care about them.

“Not because you want to hurt them, hurt their feelings. It’s actually because you like them and you want them to be better, you want the team to be better. I don’t think there is a place for disdain and that type of stuff but that is the time you can use emotion.

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“There is a lot of talk about leadership, a lot of talk about the blue or red head, are you going to be more logical or emotional? It’s more purple, to be honest. You need both, when to use one cue and when to use the other. And you can get it wrong sometimes but if you are getting that right more often you can help effect and impression more of the guys to think, ‘Okay, how can I start making changes?’

“Because what you are trying to do is use the intrinsic motivation initially, the part that is coming from the outside and let that transform into intrinsic motivation from the players. So giving them a rev-up from the outside, in layman’s talk, and they start staying to themselves, ‘I am going to rev myself up from the inside because that has made me think about something’.

“The lads at Leinster from that era, that worked really well there. I gave them some messages and some they really took on and drove themselves and that is probably why I left in the end. The time came where I needed to evolve because this team had evolved well and truly out of my original wheelhouse, so did I want to keep changing? I could have, I really considered it. Or do they need a different type of person now because of the way that they are as people, what they have become as a team?’

Cheika exited Leinster in 2010 having laid the solid foundation that Joe Schmidt then built on with two more Heineken Cup successes, and his brief at Leicester is to implement a similarly sound footing. “I have been involved in turnarounds, teams that have been struggling and they need to turn the direction around,” he explained.

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“I feel like I can fix my identity a little bit around who I am and Leicester is a team in the same situation otherwise they wouldn’t have got rid of their coach. I felt like there is definitely a parallel there in relation to how do I turn this team around, how do I transform, what are the things I need to do?

“It’s a different type of runway around how long I have got to get into that project, different type of playing roster as well to what we would have had at Leinster originally. But the same principles apply and it’s about getting people to believe in themselves.

“Obviously you have got to have all the technical and strategical elements as well but getting people to believe in themselves so they can succeed and believe in their teammates and trust their teammates and the coaching etc that they can help them succeed and then driving that intrinsic motivation that keeps you coming back when you are down or fighting in games to stay alive and then understanding success as well and what it takes to be successful.”

Asked why he is known in the business as the turnaround man, Cheika attributed it to be Lebanese heritage while growing up in Sydney. “I wouldn’t have been brought up as a rugby kid,” he said. “We came to Australia as immigrants so rugby league was more the working class game back then.

“Randwick was down the road and I literally started playing (union) because I thought I could get a free trip overseas one day because they play rugby overseas which is what happened, I went and played in France when I was 21.

“I have always been an outsider I suppose. Even when I coached Australia I felt like an outsider. I don’t know why, it’s my own perception and it may not be real even but I like that challenge, I like that hardship and I don’t mind owning the problems from before.

“If you are going to come to a club for a turnaround, you have got to make sure you own the things from before. You can’t say before they did this or they were doing that. You have always got to say ‘we’ and you are part of that because that is part of your history.

“I’m part of the club, the club has got a history, part of that history hasn’t been the greatest. Okay, I have got to own that and do my best to turn that around, not disassociate myself from that. You have got to own everything because you have players here who were part of it (before my time).”

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I
IkeaBoy 1 hour ago
Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

“Why are you so insistent on being wrong? Man United won in 2008 (beating Chelsea in the final). In 2009 Barcelona won, beating United.”

Good lad, just checking. So you’re not a bot! Chelsea bombed the 2008 final more than United won it. John Terry… couldn’t happen to a nicer fella.


“The gap between wins ignores the finals contested. 2 in 2 years with his City Triumph. The most recent put him in the elite company of managers to have won it with multiple clubs. Yet more late career success and history.”

Again - you’re not correct. City won the CL in 2023, and made the final in 2021. Those are the only two CL finals they have made.”

So the difference between 2021 and 2023 would of course be TWO YEARS. 24 months would account for 3 different seasons. They contested ECL finals twice in two years. The first in 2021 - which they lost - was still the first elite European final in the clubs then 141 year history. Explain clearly how that’s not an achievement? Guess what age he was then…


“I think your take on Gatland is pretty silly. Gatland was without Edwards in the 2013 and 2017 Lions tours and managed to do alright.”

I thought you don’t care what certain managers did 10 years ago…

Why would I address Eddie Jones? Why would he be deserving of a single sentence?


“I am aware Les Kiss has achieved great things in his career, but I don’t care what he did over ten years ago. Rugby was a different sport back then.”

So you haven’t watched even a minute of Super Rugby this year?


“lol u really need to chill out”

Simply frightful! If you’re not a bot you’re at least Gen-Z?

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fl 2 hours ago
Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

“Pep didn’t win the ECL in 2009. It was 2008 with Barca”

Why are you so insistent on being wrong? Man United won in 2008 (beating Chelsea in the final). In 2009 Barcelona won, beating United.


“The gap between wins ignores the finals contested. 2 in 2 years with his City Triumph. The most recent put him in the elite company of managers to have won it with multiple clubs. Yet more late career success and history.”

Again - you’re not correct. City won the CL in 2023, and made the final in 2021. Those are the only two CL finals they have made. With Barcelona, Pep made the semi final four consecutive times - with City he’s managed only 3 in 8 years. This year they didn’t even make the round of 16.


To re-cap, you wrote that Pep “has gotten better with age. By every measure.” There are some measures that support what you’re saying, but the vast majority of the measures that you have highlighted actually show the opposite.


I am aware Les Kiss has achieved great things in his career, but I don’t care what he did over ten years ago. Rugby was a different sport back then.


I think your take on Gatland is pretty silly. Gatland was without Edwards in the 2013 and 2017 Lions tours and managed to do alright. You’ve also not addressed Eddie Jones.


I agree wrt Schmidt. He would ideally be retained, but it wouldn’t work to have a remote head coach. He should definitely be hired as a consultant/analyst/selector though.


“Look at the talent that would be discarded in Schmidt and Kiss if your age Nazism was applied.”

lol u really need to chill out lad. Kiss and Schmidt would both be great members of the coaching set up in 2025, but it would be ridiculous to bank on either to retain the head coach role until 2031.

171 Go to comments
I
IkeaBoy 2 hours ago
Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

Pep didn’t win the ECL in 2009. It was 2008 with Barca. The gap between wins ignores the finals contested. 2 in 2 years with his City Triumph. The most recent put him in the elite company of managers to have won it with multiple clubs. Yet more late career success and history.


His time with City - a lower win ratio compared to Bayern Munich as you say - includes a 100 PT season. A feat that will likely never be surpassed. I appreciate you don’t follow soccer too closely but even casual fans refer to the sport in ‘pre and post Pep’ terms and all because of what he has achieved and is continuing to achieve, late career. There is a reason that even U10’s play out from the back now at every level of the game. That’s also a fairly recent development.


How refreshing to return to rugby on a rugby forum.


Ireland won a long over due slam in 2009. The last embers of a golden generation was kicked on by a handful of young new players and a new senior coach. Kiss was brought in as defence coach and was the reason they won it. They’d the best defence in the game at the time. He all but invented the choke tackle. Fittingly they backed it up in the next world cup in their 2011 pool match against… Australia. The instantly iconic image of Will Genia getting rag-dolled by Stephen Ferris.


His career since has even included director of rugby positions. He would have an extremely good idea of where the game is at and where it is going in addition to governance experience and dealings. Not least in Oz were many of the players will have come via or across Rugby League pathways.


Gatland isn’t a valid coach to compare too. He only ever over-achieved and was barely schools level without Shaun Edwards at club or test level. His return to Wales simply exposed his limitations and a chaotic union. It wasn’t age.


Schmidt is open to staying involved in a remote capacity which I think deserves more attention. It would be a brain drain to lose him. He stepped in to coach the ABs in the first 2022 test against Ireland when Foster was laid out with Covid. They mullered Ireland 42-19. He was still heavily involved in the RWC 2023 quarter final. Same story.


Look at the talent that would be discarded in Schmidt and Kiss if your age Nazism was applied.

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f
fl 4 hours ago
Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

“He won a ECL and a domestic treble at the beginning of his career.”

He won 2 ECLs at the beginning of his career (2009, 2011). Since then he’s won 1 in 15 years.


“He then won 3 leagues on the bounce later in his career”

He won 3 leagues on the bounce at the start of his career too - (2009, 2010, 2011).


If we’re judging him by champions league wins, he peaked in his late 30s, early 40s. If we’re judging him by domestic titles he’s stayed pretty consistent over his career. If we’re judging him by overall win rate he peaked at Bayern, and was better at Barcelona than at City. So no, he hasn’t gotten better by every measure.


“You mentioned coaches were older around the mid-2010’s compared to the mid-2000’s. Robson was well above the average age you’ve given for those periods even in the 90’s when in his pomp.”

Robson was 63-64 when he was at Barcelona, so he wasn’t very old. But yeah, he was slightly above the average age of 60 I gave for the top 4 premier league coaches in 2015, and quite a bit above the averages for 2005 and 2025.


“Also, comparing coaches - and their experiences, achievements - at different ages is unstable. It’s not a valid way to compare and tends to torpedo your own logic when you do compare them on equal terms. I can see why you don’t like doing it.”

Well my logic certainly hasn’t been torpedoed. Currently the most successful premier league coaches right now are younger than they were ten years ago. You can throw all the nuance at it that you want, but that fact won’t change. It’s not even clear what comparing managers “on equal terms” would even mean, or why it would be relevant to anything I’ve said.


“You still haven’t answered why Kiss could be a risker appointment?”

Because I’ve been talking to you about football managers. If you want to change the subject then great - I care a lot more about rugby than I do football.

But wrt Kiss, I don’t agree that 25 years experience is actually that useful, given what a different sport rugby was 25 years ago. Obviously in theory more experience can never be a bad thing, but I think 10 years of coaching experience is actually more than enough these days. Erasmus had been a coach for 13 years when he got the SA top job. Andy Farrell had been a coach for 9 when he got the Ireland job. I don’t think anyone would say that either of them were lacking in experience.


Now - what about coaches who do have 25+ years experience? The clearest example of that would be Eddie Jones, who started coaching 31 years ago. He did pretty well everywhere he worked until around 2021 (when he was 61), when results with England hit a sharp decline. He similarly oversaw a terrible run with Australia, and currently isn’t doing a great job with Japan.

Another example is Warren Gatland, who also started coaching full-time 31 years ago, after 5 years as a player-coach. Gatland did pretty well everywhere he went until 2020 (when he was 56), when he did a relatively poor job with the Chiefs, before doing a pretty poor job with the Lions, and then overseeing a genuine disaster with Wales. There are very few other examples, as most coaches retire or step back into lesser roles when they enter their 60s. Mick Byrne actually has 34 years experience in coaching (but only 23 years coaching in rugby) and at 66 he’s the oldest coach of a top 10 side, and he’s actually doing really well. He goes to show that you can continue to be a good coach well into your 60s, but he seems like an outlier.


So the point is - right now, Les Kiss looks like a pretty reliable option, but 5 years ago so did Eddie Jones and Warren Gatland before they went on to prove that coaches often decline as they get older. If Australia want Kiss as a short term appointment to take over after Schmidt leaves in the summer, I don’t think that would be a terrible idea - but NB wanted Kiss as a long term appointment starting in 2027! That’s a massive risk, given the chance that his aptitude will begin to decline.


Its kind of analagous to how players decline. We know (for example) that a fly-half can still be world class at 38, but we also know that most fly-halves peak in their mid-to-late 20s, so it is generally considered a risk to build your game plan around someone much older than that.

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