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The constant in the All Blacks’ struggles is not the coaches

Scott Robertson and captain Ardie Savea of New Zealand speaks to media during the International Test match between New Zealand All Blacks and Argentina at Sky Stadium on August 10, 2024 in Wellington, New Zealand. (Photo by Hagen Hopkins/Getty Images)

It’s on the senior All Blacks now.

I’m not too bothered about who New Zealand Rugby appoints as the next national coach, nor the criteria that’s been set. I mean, preferring a New Zealander who’s won some games and been in charge of a Test team is hardly a radical idea.

No, it’s put up or shut up time for the stars of this side.

You don’t like the rugby that’s been played. You don’t rate the coach or some of his staff. Maybe the captain wasn’t the guy you would’ve chosen to follow.

Fine, just be careful what you wish for.

We can debate the credentials of Jamie Joseph and Dave Rennie till the cows come home. We can float the idea of a return to the fold for Ian Foster or Steve Hansen. Heck, let’s throw names like Pat Lam and Robbie Deans into the mix.

The reason I’m relaxed about the identity of the bloke who eventually replaces Scott Robertson as All Blacks coach is because they’re largely an irrelevance.

The playing personnel isn’t going to change. The Barrett brothers, Ardie Savea, Damien McKenzie, Codie Taylor and Rieko Ioane aren’t all suddenly going to become surplus to requirements.

New Zealand has the makings of an elite Test team. The fact that it isn’t one is because of the players, not the coach.

Of the players I mentioned, injury kept McKenzie from playing at the 2019 Rugby World Cup. The rest were there that year and again in 2023.

Shall we reel off the losses to Argentina that now appear to come on an annual basis? How about the drubbings from Ireland? South Africa 43 New Zealand 10, anyone?

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Hansen was a superb front man, Foster a fine coach and less able statesman than his predecessor, while Robertson appears to have struggled with both the public and private parts of the role.

But what do we — the millions of us that watch on from beyond the four walls of the All Blacks dressing room — judge these coaches on? Results, ultimately.

They’ve been inadequate for years now, regardless of who’s been in charge.

It’s not hard to catalogue potential mistakes Robertson made. Just as it takes no effort to question the calibre of his support staff or to wonder aloud about what prompted Leon MacDonald and Jason Holland to depart it.

The constants here are the same senior pros and the same underwhelming results and performances.

A new broom might sweep clean, but then I think we all assumed that ahead of Robertson’s first series in charge, against England in 2024. A new coach and coaches could invigorate the players, and we could see the team reach the potential we like to believe is still untapped.

It’s just that, beyond wholesale change to the squad, history suggests we’re just going to get more of what we’ve seen since the All Blacks’ bubble was so emphatically burst by Ireland in Chicago way back in 2016.

The decline dates back that far and has been presided over by a select group of players for most of the years since.

Well, they’ve seen off Scott Robertson. Yes, he’s gone, but they remain.

So, it’s on them now. They’re the ones who obviously thought the model was broken, and it’s up to them to fix it.

Joseph, Rennie or whoever can don a suit and tie and talk into the microphone, but it’s only the on-field actions of the players that count.

The next head coach can say and do what he likes, but in the end, he’s hostage to what the players produce on the paddock.

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270 Comments
J
JW 39 days ago

Yet you can’t backup your claim.

P
PMcD 39 days ago

JW - your lack of knowledge is embarrassing you.


People in Europe acknowledge FFR is the highest earning Union.


I was talking about FFR after you incorrectly claimed NZR to have the highest revenue, which they don’t.


There’s no point in me wasting my time when you simply choose to live in denial and twist things to try and save face.

J
JW 39 days ago

You’re talking about selections. I might have to give up.

J
JW 39 days ago

No, did you even watch the Springboks this year?

J
JW 39 days ago

About what this time?

J
JW 39 days ago

You aren’t giving “structured and factual responses” you’re giving off topic and irrelavent responses lol

J
JW 39 days ago

What? Yes they do.


Were talking about FFR. Nothing to do with Top 14.


No wonder you’re all over the show. Feel free to start about back on my original post if you like.

P
PMcD 39 days ago

They would know the attack nosedived since the loss to ARG in TRC and the defence was also getting worse, so they were actually failing on both sides of the ball and the results don’t lie.

P
PMcD 39 days ago

I’ve just posted this on one of the other threads but thought it was worth posting on here also.


I know there is still some debate regarding if Razor’s AB’s were performing or not, so I just looked at the average points over time (on both sides of the ball) to see if it highlighted anything and it certainly does;


2019 - Played 11, PF 440 (ave 40), PA 158 (ave 14) - PD + 282


2020 - Played 6, PF PF 145 (ave 25), PA 77 (ave 13) - PD +68


2021 - Played 11, PF 495 (ave 45), PA 205 (ave 19) - PD +290


2022 - Played 13, PF 420 (ave 32), PA 304 (ave 23) - PD + 116


2023 - Played 12, PF 480 (ave 40), PA 183 (ave 15) = PD +297


2024 - Played 14, PF 431 (ave 30), PA 270 (ave 19) = PD +161


2025 - Played 13, PF 384 (ave ave 29), PA 303 (ave 23) - PD +81

* the attack struggled from the 2nd ARG match in TRC


If you simply look at averages since the 2nd ARG TRC game, the stats say the following:


2025 - Played 9, PF 240 (ave 26), PA 216 (ave 24)


In fairness, whilst you look at Razor’s win rate percentage it didn’t look too bad but when you look at these as just averages, you can see why they ultimately said “trajectory’.


The average numbers don’t lie and they were getting worse on both sides of the ball since the ARG loss in TRC, which actually falls in with the narrative regarding trajectory but whilst the attack was getting worse, it may also have been the defence that cost him his job.


It certainly adds a slightly different narrative to the debate.

P
PMcD 39 days ago

You mean he ran straight back to the forwards, let them win the ruck and kept to the gameplan which won them the game. Yes, that pretty much sums it up JW.


Tactical masterclass at 14 man rugby.

J
JW 39 days ago

Yeah they’ve got players for every situation. Even when the likes of Sacha in that French cauldron doesn’t have the tactical kicking to control a game a man down, so what does he do? He just makes 20 or 30 meters each time running the ball instead of kicking it!


He knew what was tactically required and went out there and did it.

P
PMcD 39 days ago

South Africa played a more expansive style during TRC and then went back to controlling games through their forwards on tour. What’s concerning is they are learning how to control games but have shown they have the ability to unleash the attack when required (which will get better in the background). Pretty lethal combination when you have those together.

P
PMcD 40 days ago

Poor response JW and only confirms your lack of emotional intelligence on these issues. If you can’t handle people giving structured and factual responses to call out your false narratives, then stop making them.

P
PMcD 40 days ago

They don’t in Europe, they see it as the best placed Union, where they have an exceptional tv deal covering both the International & Top 14 games that generates a lot of money.


They have a structure where the game gets a lot of support from the regional French governments to support the Top 14 teams (and usually owns and funds the stadiums), they have a national team that have got better under Fabien Galthie (current 6 Nations Champions), they are seeing a period of significant success in the Investec Championship for their teams, who are supported by large corporate sponsors (Airbus, Altrad, Michelin etc).


In short, they are probably the ones with the model that everyone aspires to, with a lot to like about what they do.

J
JW 41 days ago

My gut feeling is that it was energy level based, mental burdens that caused them to fade and not stay in games, or fail to really put teams away by nailing the plan even better as the game went on. It could be something wrong with either the game plan or dressing room attitude, but I’d say the answer is generally something really simple, like fatigue. Fatigue of simple fitness, or mental burden like bring the ABs in to the modern age of structured “NFL type” game plans, I don’t know.

J
JW 41 days ago

Razors problem, was even when the All Blacks were leading, at say half time, they still seemed all those things (as they did on many victories that year) you mention, unsure and clumsy.


What I don’t know is whether the players were putting commendable efforts in to ensure Razor had a good record (im sure that would have been a main aspect of culture coach), despite an inadequate game plan, or whether the game plan was actually working and giving them leads despite the players seemingly not doing it very well (looking all over the show), and its just that the players couldn’t see this and threw in the towel prematurely.

J
JW 41 days ago

What’s wrong with that? Sure you now realise how you wasting everyones time after rereading the discussion?


Or are you that full of your own self that you didn’t even bother? Perhaps you are in fact number 2.

J
JW 41 days ago

Why does everyone behave like the FFR as so broke and out of funds then?

P
PMcD 41 days ago

Petulent response JW, I think you need to get over yourself.

P
PMcD 41 days ago

That would be about Euro 440m p.a JW, a long way ahead of NZ.

J
JW 41 days ago

No that is from the horses mouth, the real reality. Not what you live in.


Enjoy your rising prices. Then come back when you can follow discussions.

J
JW 41 days ago

I thought you might have been that lost.


Are you trying to make my points for me again, or why did you mention them?


FFR have the highest revenue? Whats their yearly turnover?


You wouldn’t know the first thing about PMCD.

P
PMcD 42 days ago

That would be the Canterbury Crusaders JW, based on the outskirts of Christchurch, NZ if you are struggling to follow. 🤣


However, I’m afraid you have been making up your own facts again JW. Highest Union on a Revenue basis is FRA (by some margin), followed by ENG (RFU). NZR are a little behind but why let facts get in the way of a good story hey JW. 🤣🤣

T
TokoRFC 42 days ago

Bidwell with some popular rhetoric again.


Of course the players have to take accountability.

But B Barret was the only current player who was also in the leadership group in Chicago 2016. The current team is very different from 2023 even, the leadership group from the previous cycle are mostly retired. So unless 3-4 players are holding the entire team hostage there has been plenty of variation in players.


What is consistent is The All Blacks have performed badly when the coaching group has lacked experience. Whitelock said it himself regarding 2022: “we were being poorly coached”, they got new assistant coaches and they turned a corner very quickly, ultimately the players were right.


I’m also relaxed about who the head coach is, but I’m bloody nervous NZR will (once again) give him a pack of muppets to work with.

R
RP 43 days ago

On careful analysis, Robertson’s recent record is pretty much on par with that of Rassie Erasmus. Both teams lost two matches in the Rugby Championship, with SA winning the title on points difference. And the Boks had the further advantage of playing Argentina at a neutral venue. Both teams had one big blowout: the Boks against Australia at Ellis Park, and the ABs against SA at Wellington. But don’t forget that NZ outplayed and out-thought SA in defending their Eden Park record, while Australia won at Ellis Park for the first time since 1963. And the Wellington loss was probably due to a combination of a post- Eden Park NZ motivation dip, and some NZ complacency as Rassie had made

ten changes to his first choice team (and a number of these were highly motivated to prove a point). I am sure the wholesale changes were not a Rassie masterstroke- it was because after Eden Park he was out of options, and rolled the dice (the radical changes were a calculated insurance in case of a big loss to NZ- ‘experimenting for the future’).

A final point: when Rassie took over as Bok manager SA were ranked 6th in the world, and would still be stuck at around that ranking if he has not persuaded SA Rugby to change their policy on choosing overseas-based players. Robertson, on the other hand, was stuck with NZ-based players: no Richie M’oanga, Brodie Retaillick, Shannon Frizell, Aaron Smith, Nagani Laumape and others. So essentially Robertson was building a new team -with some success - with one hand tied behind his back. Despite this, NZ are still ranked no 2 in the world.

It strikes me the real problem here is the NZRU- they completely botched the discarding of Foster snd installation of Robertson process, and one fears they have now botched this process too.

The people most relieved that NZ failed to win the 2023 RWC final were the NZRU officials who had a hand in ousting Foster, and now only winning the 2027 RWC will be an acceptable result for the NZ public. No pressure on the new manager then.

P
PMcD 42 days ago

Good post RP but I would argue two key moments during TRC that shaped the SB’s last season. Firstly Rassie had the confidence to confront reality and say “we played like dogshit”.


Then after Eden Park he changed the 10 players, who all pretty much stayed in the team thereafter and it’s hard to deny how well that team played from Wellington onwards, going the rest of the season unbeaten.


Considering most people were claiming the SB’s were old and past it, to have changed the team and led such a strong finish to the year, that was an amazing job. They took a big step forward last year, whilst Razor went backwards 0 in some sense the word “trajectory” was a fair justification, things were trending in the wrong direction for the AB’s relative to the competition.

G
GRB13 43 days ago

Whatever mate I bet you think the All Blacks are still the best team in the world last year. The All Blacks lost in Wellington because they were totally out played by the Springboks that is all that there is to it. Rassie named the team on the Monday he was not forced which was a bit of games-men ship. Sure doing whole sale changes is always a gamble but that is just the way Rassie roles. The All Blacks and the NZRU as stuck in the past and that is where they will stay unless different thinking from the top is applied.

c
cw 43 days ago

A brave comment - like it. Reading the vast majority of the posts and you would think the ABs lost to Wales rather than beating SA this year.

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