'Kitshoff has been dominated...he's certainly been exposed'

Thank you 🙏

good for you!

I think I’ve been quite clear on why I think they’ll do well. I don’t want to continue repeating myself.

Cheers.

The gulf between New Zealand and South Africa (in the RC) is far larger than that between South Africa and Australia. I don’t think you’re being objective at all in your assessment here.

I’m aware you’re stating what you think South Africa will do, but its an odd debate given you don’t seem to be giving any thought out reasons for why they will do well, beyond your religious devotion to the cult of Erasmus (and, I guess, having the luck of the draw in the RC this year). You’re allowed to rate Erasmus - I do too, but your perception of his talents really doesn’t seem to have much basis in what he is actually good at.

WRT to the international schedule; I’m glad we agree on something!

If the boks dont win the RC I will be shocked and I will say I was wrong.

I said the ABs mostly win it. I don’t disagree there. But it’s still largely just a competition between SA and NZ - which I’d rather see in tours than the current tournament format.

I’m not debating South Africa’s past record - I’m well aware. I’m debating that I think they’ll do well going forward.

Your idea around a better international schedule - I support. It needs a change up. Not sure how it should look - but I’d like to see more international teams playing different international teams. It’s a bit like Groundhog Day. The autumn series is arbitrary and only worth bragging rights or world ranking points.

I agree that the Boks are being well coached. Specifically they are being coached by a guy that is good at peaking for world cups.

If the Boks win the RC I will be shocked and will say I was wrong. What will you say if they don’t win the RC?

“t’s a tournament exclusivley contested between the ABs and boks” No it isn’t. It is contested by the All Blacks. In the past ten years SA have won once, the same number of times as Australia. In that time SA have never won the freedom cup, and have won the mandela cup only 3 times out of a possible 9.

I like the idea of a return to traditional tours, but I think the timing of the proposed tour is all wrong. When you create more competitions you risk devaluing the existing competitions. In part this is because fans will just get fatigue, or they will start to see some competitions as just warm-up exercises for others, but in part it is because players won’t be able to remain fit for entire seasons. In 2026 SA and NZ will have insanely busy schedules, and they will struggle to be competitive for the proposed tour without significantly rotating their squads for the RC and the world-league-thing.

What I would prefer would be scrapping the world league idea, and instead having each team play two traditional tours per season, with opponents assigned by World Rugby according to a pre-determined algorithm in order to ensure that all teams get regular competitive fixtures. What might work would be to take the top team in the world, and assign them an away tour against the geographically closest team to them that is within 13 world ranking points of them, and a home tour against the geographically closest team to them that is within 7 world ranking points - with the specification that they can’t be assigned a team they have played 8 or more times in the previous 4 years. Then going through and repeating the process for each team down the world rankings, obviously excluding teams whose tours have already been assigned.

Doing that you’d get:

july:

RSA v IRE

NZE v FRA

ENG v SCO

ARG v FIJ

AUS v TON

WAL v ITA

JAP v SAM

ROM v GEO

november:

FRA v RSA

IRE v ENG

ITA v NZE

SCO v WAL

USA v ARG

FIJ v AUS

GEO v JAP

SAM v URU

overall you get at least as many competitive fixtures as under the present system with fewer air miles, and in the long run you would also get more regular fixtures between tier 1 and tier 2 nations as fixtures between six nations teams would start to be ruled out under the 8-match rule. It would also make the world cup (and occasional inter-hemisphere tours) more exciting due to rarity.

Your last paragraph describes the reality of any sports team in the world.

The difference for me is that the boks are currently being well coached. Where we differ may be on the players coming through - but I think you’re being overly negative about this.

And I believe the boks will win the RC this year. If that happens, what will you say then?

You made a good point about the RC earlier. It’s not a great competition. It’s a tournament exclusivley contested between the ABs and boks (mostly won by the ABs). I find it pretty boring (as far as tournaments go) and unless Aus comes back strong, I’d much rather have the traditional tours between NZ and SA - seemingly on the cards.

“Evan Roos, for example, was hailed as our next no.8. He hasn’t become a fixture in the squad. Thats how it goes, Finn. Players who are good at club level don’t necessarily make the transition (immediately) to international level. Even the ones that seem to stand out.”

this is literally one of the main points I’ve been making in this thread.

“In over 100 years, SA has not had trouble finding players good enough to be springboks.”

but the springboks haven’t always played well. they almost never win the rugby championship, and on some occasions they have even played badly in world cups. partly that is down to coaching, and partly it is down to some generations of players being better than others.

I think all the players selected are good. As to who they will be improvements on - that’s impossible to answer until they get a chance to play. If I could answer that question with certainty - I’d quit my day job.

Evan Roos, for example, was hailed as our next no.8. He hasn’t become a fixture in the squad. Thats how it goes, Finn. Players who are good at club level don’t necessarily make the transition (immediately) to international level. Even the ones that seem to stand out.

I don’t think Mngomezulu is overrated (like you do) - I think he could be our next 10. Who could Potentially be an improvement on Manie Libbok.

Again, I don’t think any of these players would be called up if selectors and the coaches didn’t have good reason too. But not all of them will go the distance. Time and being played/tested will tell.

In over 100 years, SA has not had trouble finding players good enough to be springboks.

he’s used exclusively as an 8 by the bulls, and played 8 for south africa under 20s. I imagine he could do a job on the flank if needed, but I think he’s a little bit small for a south african lock.

I also respect that the coaching staff and selectors are doing their jobs, whatever that extremely banal statement means. I’ve asked you who the good players coming through are, and you don’t seem able to answer that question. To reiterate, do you think there are any of the 16 that will be improvements on players picked in their positions in the 2023 world cup squad?

Hanekom is primarily a 7/lock variety flanker - being used at 8 by the bulls. Let’s settle on back-rower.

My point around the 16 and the alignment camp wasn’t that all of them would make it long term. But that there are good players coming through. You dont like most of them - but that’s you. I respect that the coaching staff and selectors are doing their jobs.

I’m not saying the selectors are doing a bad job. You’re clearly misunderstanding both what I am doing, and what the selectors are doing. An alignment camp is not a proper squad. Most of the players who I think aren’t good enough for the main springboks squad won’t make the main springbok squad. Do you think they will? Who will be left out to make room for them?

Cameron Hanekom is primarily a number 8 not a flanker, but my point was that Moodie is the only properly elite level young player in the Springboks squad. Hanekom is close to his level, even if they obviously play different positions.

I wasn’t giving a serious assessment of Quan Horn, because at that point I had been through like 14 other guys and was getting bored. Do you think Quan Horn is going to be a key player for the Boks over the next 4 years? I doubt it, which is a shame because his name is so funny.

“Of course not all of them will make it. But you’re not going to convince me that the springboks and the coaching staff and selectors don’t know what they’re doing.”

I really think you’re making a virtue out of not understanding anything about rugby. Of these 16 players probably 3 or 4 of them will make the squad for the fixtures against Ireland, and they will probably be the ones I identified as especially good (Fouché, Wessels, van Heerden, Hanekom, possibly Hartzenberg or van Wyk). Of those, at most only 1 or 2 of them, and possibly none of them, will actually get game time. At that point I assume you’ll praise how brilliant the selectors are for realising that the rest of them weren’t good enough yet for the full squad!

To be fair there’s probably some truth to that. More than him losing interest, I think another issue was that he was a bit thick.

If Woodward was the only issue, however, why did England do so badly under Robinson and Ashton? The most plausible explanation for persistant failures is that we just didn’t have the players.

England after 2003. Clive Woodward lost interest?

Woodward, who supports Chelsea, had earlier said in an interview: "My whole background is in football. I love football and I go to as many games as I possibly can. I never had that passion for rugby I have for football. I never got into rugby in the same way."

Quite frankly, there was no plan after 2003. Sir Clive had bigger dreams. Much like there was no plan after Eddie. And so on and so forth. Which is probably why England hasn’t won a World Cup since.

Probably not good enough. Because you say so? I wonder how it is that you’re here debating with me. You should be out there, taking some selectors place, Finn.

Cameron Hannekom is a flanker. Not sure why you’re comparing him to Moodie. “Quan Horn has a silly name”. You can’t be serious or expect me to take your assessment of these professional rugby players seriously.

Of course not all of them will make it. But you’re not going to convince me that the springboks and the coaching staff and selectors don’t know what they’re doing.

A pity only two tests to be played Boks Vs Irish. Bragging rights up for grabs

Maybe it’s because he’s surrounded by terrible rugby players

I would not be paying too much attention to what Stephen Ferris has to say. He has form with these sorts of comments. Ulster look to be in a real mess right now. Kitsie is the first South African not to have been a big hit in Ulster. I think he has just been unlucky, walking into the mess. Probably for the best that he goes…. back to SA ?

Also Kitsie is used to scrummaging alongside Frans and others. He has performed well when he has played with them because they know each other well. I would say it's less Kitshoff and more the coaches needing to figure out where he is properly placed. And how he functions. Stormers know exactly who he plays well with and so when he returns it will be like speaking your home language. It will come naturally

To be fair, it must be really tough spending 5 months with an international side peaking for a short run of games, playing the best rugby of your career, and then being expected to perform at the same level immediately upon moving across and world to play for a mediocre club side.

The fear for south africa must be whether Kitshoff will be able to get back into form over the summer, or whether, at 32 years old, he’s now a fading force.

Presumably Nché and Steenekamp will be 1&17 for the bulk of the next four years, but things could get a bit dicey if Erasmus isn't able to keep relying on Kitshoff as a big-game player for the rest of 2024 at the least.